Duke Rape - from Biting Beaver
From Biting Beaver
I’ve remained conspicuously silent on the rape of the African American stripper. Many of you who follow my blog can probably fill in why, but I’ve decided to have a go at this one anyway.
I read about this several days ago, it seemed that the radical blogs I visit grabbed it all at the same time. Thanks for the heads up ladies.
I read this story and, to be perfectly honest, I promptly forgot it. Now, before you drag me through the computer and whack me around with a silly stick let me explain. I read it in the morning, and thought, “OMG I need to blog about this!†I navigated from the page and, just like those moments when you wander into the kitchen and don’t remember why you’ve gone there, I found myself sitting on a new post and wondering…”hmmm, what was I going to write about again?â€
Several moments later I was overwhelmed by a distinct urge to play with my zoo.
Later on, I poked about again to see if anyone had updated. There was another one of my favorite voices blogging about this thing. I even left a comment and promptly decided that I should write about it. I forgot about it entirely.
Yesterday was the same thing. I woke up and decided to check out the blogs. More stuff about this poor girl, more anger, more indignation and…something else, what was it? And again, with the window open for a new post, I was overcome with a burning desire to archive and to catch up with emails. I HAD to do it, right then, no questions about it.
I did.
I sat here all day and all night archiving and emailing and doing all the bloggy maintenance stuff that Dubhe mentioned last night.
I get up this morning and make my morning rounds, noting the new spring sun streaming through my window and relishing the feel of the warm mug of coffee in my hand. I find that Red State Feminist (link on the sidebar) has pointed to a new blog that is covering the issue.
Suddenly, my previous few days of pressing work, forgetfulness and sudden desire to play games or clean snaps into clear, hard focus. I can barely stand to think about it. That emotion that hid, just out of reach like a mouse on my peripheral vision, became crystal clear. Yes, there was anger. Yes, there was indignation. Yes, there was sadness. But the other emotion was fear. Dear god, I was terrified. When I looked beyond the desire to stay busy with anything BUT this I realized that I was filled with fear.
The shadowy figures of men haunted me. Men, jerking off and saying horrible things to me. Men, sitting in a circle, jeering and screaming at me. There faces were lost to me, their individual features obscured by time and willpower. But I remember it. I remember the fear I’d felt so many times in the past. The fear would build in the pit of my stomach… Read full post
DeAnander:
This is the passage in BB’s post that really hit me hard.
BB suggests that for her at least (and presumably for many other women in the “sex entertainment” service industry since none of us is unique, we all share feelings and thoughts with millions of others who have been in our position one way and another), the belief that she (the woman) was powerful, was in charge of the situation, was a protective mantra that she clung to in order to silence her own terror and make her able to get through the gig without panicking. She suggests that it is a denial reflex, to make the terror of the basic situation — a woman isolated, exposing her body to men, in the physical power of a group of men, possibly drunken and disorderly men, needing the money that they are offering — bearable.
This argument — that strippers, pole dancers et al are “powerful” because they “have what men want” and can “extort” money from men “just for a look” — is used over and over again by apologists for the sex entertainment service industry. It is used to “prove” the women’s freedom and agency in this situation and sometimes to recast the punters (the men) as “the real victims”. I think BB’s post provides ample grounds to reconsider and challenge this oft-repeated defence.
4 April 2006, 2:05 amConsumer:
Yeah, werd. Christ, this made me think about a lot of things. Still processing, thanks for triggering the process.
4 April 2006, 4:51 pmfrank:
This sucks. What’s worse is that one has to sift through the mainline media BS to even get the story. I heard about it on Sunday from a girlfriend of mine, but didn’t hear much on the news. Look. I, and my brothers, have never been the type to get off on this sort of “entertainment”. It’s pathetic. But, to each his own. And if these assholes can’t be re-programmed to act responsibly, and they continue to be misogynistic, racist pigs, rest assured, even if a court doesn’t hand down sentence, they will get theirs. I was told the same thing by a neighbor in west Oakland after my lady was pistol-whipped by a group of twelve-year olds out for some kicks. The lady is Sri Lankan, the kids and neighbor are black, and I’m white. Is there a common denominator? I think so. It’s called personal fucking responsibility.
5 April 2006, 12:25 amToo bad the women in these situations have to live with this shit for the rest of their lives.
Hubris Sonic:
Steve Gilliard has a good post up about this, here
5 April 2006, 6:15 amMyron Balame:
This says it all:
http://www.sportsline.com/spin/story/9359522
BC
5 April 2006, 5:00 pmR:
Compare this case to the hysteric lynch mob in New York about the white grad student who was raped and killed, SUPPOSEDLY by a black bouncer. American society is just as disgusting as it was during Jim Crow.
5 April 2006, 11:43 pmpeggy:
This is the most powerful statement I’ve read in a long time. All the young girls who are trained to be seductive performers and maybe even dream of being sex-workers, aspire to be sex-workers, before they even know what sex is, should somehow be made to see where their aspirations may lead - to understand the terror.
6 April 2006, 4:21 amIt is interesting to know that the lady is Sri Lankan. When I was in Sri Lanka I was invited to the house of a prominent MP, and his eight-year-old daughter was brought out to perform for me. She did “I’m a Barbie girl” with all the gestures. When she was finished, her father asked what I thought. All I could say was, “She’s a little girl”.
Julian Real:
To Frank.
I wish it were pathetic. Unfortunately, it’s normal and is considered natural. There are now strip-aerobics classes, and pornography is as prevalent as ever. Today on a talk show the topic was what women should do to make themselves more like a pornographic ideal? The question wasn’t why do women wish to do this, or why do men want “their” women to do this, but how much is too much?
Read Sheila Jeffreys’ Beauty and Misogyny, to know just how interlinked the two are.
Women are used as prostitutes all the time. Women are raped every day. Some are killed after the rape, some before.
My question for you is this: how often do you interrupt men telling sexist/racist jokes? How often do you make your body and the space around it a “misogyny-free”, racism-free” zone.
I know many wonderful men, who don’t consume women as objects, but who stay silent when their friends (or they) play games with strippers and prostitutes in them, or refer to women they “laid” or talk about “gettin’ some ass” or call out to a strange woman on the street, as if she needs to hear it, again. Do you interrupt men who do this? I hope so.
I hope you and all your male friends interrupt white men’s sexist/racist behaviour on a daily, if not hourly, basis.
I don’t see men doing this sort of intervention, and I hear men come up with the most elaborate reasons for their passivity in this regard. I don’t see men protesting the cosmetics, fashion, advertising, pornography, prostitution, and sex tourism industries. For a gender known for talking a lot, men sure seem largely silent on matters of justice for women-as-humans.
I am hoping you are exceptional.
Peace.
6 April 2006, 9:45 pmfrank:
Julian,
My answer for you: all the time, and I’m getting mighty tired of it. Just recently I’ve become aware of my need to reject what Jeff Jones calls “the seduction of revenge”.Too bad that I’m considered “exceptional” for telling a racist to STFU. And for standing up when it comes to bullshit attitudes towards women. Telling the truth isn’t too popular these days, the world over, that much I’ve figured out. But at the top of my list of loathing is the concept of “going along to get along”. And the “normal” and “natural” is probably why I end up disliking most of mainstream society altogether. And why I wind up being ostracized. It seems never-ending.
If I’m standing next to a white guy who casually complains about the brown people in an offensive manner(happened last week) and I slap him and holler at him, what does that accomplish? He’ll just steer clear of me. It’d be nice if he reconsiders his opinion, but he has to be re-programmed. He’s learned that shit from somewhere. I remember being SO pissed off at one of my airborne brothers for saying some shit like that at a reunion,clearly out of earshot of the little brown dude who wound up going the commando route, and I called him on it, and he looked at me like, uhh…it was obvious that he wouldn’t have said anything if our brown dude could hear it.
Sometimes I think that I don’t get much love from alot of the brothas either, if they don’t know me, like they assume that since I look like a member of the “aryan race” I must be a racist cracker. I don’t even have the chance to tell ‘em that I wasn’t brought up that way, that my dad was the minority in the Bronx in the fifties, growing up in the projects, that not once did he ever say anything racist about anybody.
You never know who you’re going to need help from. and it’s my belief that most folks are good people, but they’ve learned bad behavior, and it suits them just fine because they rarely have to interact with any other element of society outside of their everyday existence. Boring. And detrimental.
I’m so tired of hearing stories about race and “violence against women”, and then I run into people who exhibit this same behavior, and it seems that folks just don’t learn. As Stan said in a previous article, it’ll all go down like a beast.
(Note to a post from Peggy: The Sri Lankan woman was involved in the robbery at gunpoint, not the events at Duke)
Peace. I like that.
7 April 2006, 11:08 pmYolanda Carrington:
Hello folks, I hope this finds all of you well.
To Frank, may I ask you a question?
Do you need validation from people of color or women in order to stand up to oppressive privilege?. I ask this because you tell us that you don’t “get much love from the brothas either.” What do you specifically mean by this statement? I venture that you’re highly disappointed by men of color is some way, but I don’t want to make assumptions.
Either way, I’ll wait for your answer before I respond.
Respect, Yolanda
8 April 2006, 3:09 pmfrank:
Yolanda,
No, I don’t need validation from anyone to stand up and speak my mind when I see some bad shit happening. The brothas that I’m referring to are the ones giving me the cold stare when they see me and my lady, who happens to be brown, doing what couples do; and we talked about this very subject when we began our relationship together. And obviously my African-American male friends aren’t the issue, because we know each other well. I’m talking about a bad vibe. Does that answer your question?
Let me ask your opinion about this situation: I’m in the laundromat one afternoon. I’m the only white person there. Everyone else is black. One young lady is doing her wash, and in walks this dude, a brother, about the size of an armoire. He walks over to the lady, a few words are exchanged, and then he starts slapping her around in front of everybody. She’s cryin, looking around, no one says anything, and I’m just imagining what would happen if I told that guy what I really think of him after that episode.
So, where do we go with that? That’s utter bullshit, but I felt as if it would be unwise to get involved without some back-up and a 2X4. What do you say?
Regards,
8 April 2006, 5:03 pmFrank
Yolanda Carrington:
Frank,
I’m not about to give you advice about physically confronting violent men, but I will say this: Challenging a person on his oppressive behavior does not involve “telling him what you really think of him.” You don’t need to insult someone in order to stop him from harming someone else.
[A head’s up: Don’t ever ask me or any other woman for advice on how to confront violent men. That is for you and all other men to figure out. Women (especially this Black woman) have enough battles with misogyny, racism, and violence as it is without trying to do men’s work for them.]
About my question to you: If you don’t need validation from men of color, why do you care if brothers give you the cold stare? Their opinions/assumptions about your relationship aren’t important. They don’t know you, and they sure don’t know the woman you’re in love with. In fact, the notion that their opinions have anything to do with her life is patriarchal.
If this Duke lacrosse rape case has taught me anything at all, it is that White men need destroy the systems of violent coercive power that they create and maintain—on their own. We (women and people of color) CANNOT do it for them. We’ve tried, but they don’t listen to us. They don’t even seem to care, until they are personally affected. Then the White guys will have to do their own homework. If you can build that shit up, you can sure tear it down.
Those boys at 610 North Buchanan Boulevard knew what the hell they were doing that night. They had it planned out, they carried it out, and they protected each other afterwards. They are still protecting each other, and they will continue to do so until one of them cracks. Or until one of the MEN in their lives decides to hold them accountable.
That’s what I say, Frank.
Yolanda
8 April 2006, 7:02 pmfrank:
Ok Yolanda, how’s this? I’m prepared to draft a memo to the president of Duke University, from the position of a man who doesn’t agree with the status quo, and is tired of the bullshit, that simply states my opinion that the students involved in the rape of this woman should be expelled from the school, point blank, and at the least.
Now, I’m no legal whiz. I’m nobody. And debate and rhetoric is certainly not my strong points either. But I do know right from wrong; and these guys knew that what they were doing was wrong. Flat out. But I can almost guarantee that they’ll get someone to put a spin on things, just like the guy sitting in the US president’s seat has done since he’s been in office, that makes it OK (or “right”) whichever way you want to look at it.
You’re smarter than me Yolanda, and so are alot of other folks on this blog, so you tell me if this seems like a proper course of action, and if so, how do we make it stick? Pls. advise
Frank
9 April 2006, 12:42 amYolanda Carrington:
Hello Frank,
You’re asking ME for advice? Oh my God. Believe me, I’m not as smart as you think I am.
If you want to write a letter to Richard Brodhead (Dukes’s president), that’s fine. Letter-writing is effective in that bureaucrats then are reminded that the public wants them to be accountable for their actions. I’ve written a few letters myself, including one to Duke’s student newspaper for their terrible editorial coverage in this case.
But for me, letter writing MUST be accompanied by on-the-ground activist work. Have you seen the coverage of all the protest events that went on last week in Durham? People in the community—including activists friends that Stan and I have known for years—helped organize those events. They brought people from all over Durham and the Triangle (the region in North Carolina where we live) together. Duke and NC Central University (the school the victim attends) are planning campus and community events to raise awareness about gendered violence
Now I don’t know where you live, but I’m pretty sure that if it’s in THIS country, it’s a place that has problems with misogynistic violence. If I were you, I would organize a group of men in your community that meets regularly to study and struggle against gender-based violence. That seems to me the simplest and greatest thing you can do, and it would be the greatest support you could give to survivors of sexual violence.
The biggest lesson that this Duke case taught me is that we need to step up our work in fighting gender oppression and violence here in Raleigh. I don’t want to think about the number of women and girls that have been assaulted in Raleigh since this Duke case made the headlines. But we’re not gonna hear their stories on the news, and I already know that. I can’t wait for the media to blow shit up before I start fighting. My life depends on me fighting.
Yolanda
9 April 2006, 4:09 pmfrank:
Right on, Yolanda-look, it’s like the song says,”Women Are Smarter”-
it seems this Duke situation has started it’s slide into the abyss, and when will we know what’s happening with it? I’ll write my letter, read the canned response and hope that the victim is alright. It just pisses me off that these priveleged punks and their mob mentality go unpunished. Meanwhile, I’ll embrace your advice by bringing the issue of violence against women up at our crime prevention meeting tomorrow night. I’m in Oakland,Cal, where crime is on the rise, the infrastructure is basically shot, and none of it effects any of the rich. So those folks up in the Oakland and Berkeley hills go to a yoga class and chant and hope the crime just goes away. Apathy. And I’m talking about more than getting a car window replaced. But I’m just another ant, working away every day, trying to keep the food and rent taken care of. And I have seen the violence against women; it’s bullshit. But I’m thinking about our asses in Iraq right now, where those folks don’t want white people telling THEM what to do. I’m walking a line here, and I need all the help that I can get. I wish the panthers were still around, then maybe this shit wouldn’t be happening, that is if the cops would stay the fuck out of the way.
Keep on fightin, and I’ll do the same. Thanks.
Frank
9 April 2006, 6:20 pmfrank:
Well…my bad, it seems that the coach of the lacrosse team at Duke has quit, and one of the players posted an e-mail that was purely psychopathic about the incident, and the knucklehead, pill-popping Rush Limbaugh said some bullshit on his program about the sitch which drew an immediate heat round from a caller(Limbaugh apologized; no shit dude, this was a college student who was raped).
So, perhaps the university is taken this more seriously than I had originally thought. Glad it’s at least on the radar. An attorney suggested that the victim was injured prior to the incident. Perhaps, but that doesn’t mean that she was raped. I certainly don’t like the fact that the woman’s version of events is immediately called into question when she says she was raped, but reading Stan’s latest explains gender-based mental conditioning pretty clearly. Out here
Frank
9 April 2006, 9:42 pmStan:
A group of us in Raleigh had this discussion yesterday. One person was very honest — a white male — in saying that he was conflicted about supporting the sister that was attacked and about the whole notion of “presumption of innocence,” of innocent until proven guilty, etc.
No one is beating this brother down because he is “unevolved” or whatever. His observation is an important one, and it reflects the thinking of many people who are similarly conflicted. And he is learning, like all of us are.
Naturally, the Hawley case is being pulled out — Black woman equals Black woman, and a whole host of other bullshit behind that association.
But we talked this over, and there were a couple of other brothers who had been in the mix in Durham, listening to the masses and all that, and they noticed more than just what white folks were thinking… how they rely on liberal law as their lodestar. These brothers pointed out that if the court case goes for the defendant(s), a few whites fear that hordes of Black youth will go post-Rodney King on them, and Duke students will become targets. This kind of white paranoia is, of course, unfounded and based on more than a whiff of plain garden-variety negrophobia.
But the real issue was that some of the Black folks — males, who Yolanda and I might describe as “cultural nationalists” — are talking each other up in a very male way about what to do to avenge this assault on one of “our” women… the Nubian princess/warrior syndrome.
So there is a lot going on here, and it has to be sort of unpacked to see where radicals can most effectively and appropriately intervene.
Like it or not, this case is in the public, and it doesn’t just have implications for those creepy oxygen-thieving shits on the lacrosse team (sorry, but all I had to hear was their commentary about “your grand-daddy picked the cotton for this shirt”, and they can fry in hell for all I care… and I believe they raped her), and it doesn’t just have implications for this particualr sister — though we are duty-bound to defend her, and I’ll tell you why. It has implications for all women, especially women of color… like Yolanda, and like my own youngest daughter.
Our job as radicals right now is to expose the things in the system that other people don’t see. Because — and I appreciate Frank pointing to the thing from CUNY — it’s that stuff that’s invisible that constitutes the real power that will be deployed on behalf of the lacrosse team and against the sister they attacked.
It’s the class power that exists prior to the operation of the law. It’s the white power that exists prior to the operation of the law. It’s the male power that exists prior to the operation of the law. All our cultural norms and our dominant ideology provide the framework of that power.
The post above does a fine job of explaining what it is really like to feel pushed by the demands of actually-existing capitalism into exotic dancing… and as you can read, this is not fun; it is humiliating and frightening as hell.
So we need to talk about that. About a sister who goes to a public school, as opposed to these young men who can afford to pay $46K a year, or whatever, to attend Duke. She gets a public prosecutor, who is bound by the same rules I described in my last post on “contract” and the same norms I described in this blog for the series on sexual aggression in the military. They will get every social advantage available to economically privileged white men, and all the positive public energy associated with that privilege. So there is not the slightest chance these men will receive an “unfair” trial; and there is every chance that the victim they attacked will be tried WITHOUT the presumption of innocence, while this prosecutor stands by and watches it, as part of the defense strategy. That is how rape trials work.
The majority of white society walks around with the unformed but powerful notion that Black women are un-rapable. This has always been the case in the south, and it is the case more generaly now, and this will be a very important factor in the public discourse about this case, and we are obliged to stick this ugly reality right up under people’s noses and make it part of every conversation.
Exotic dancers, prostitutes, and wives are also considered un-rapable. This is not a legal precedent; it is the air we breathe, and it is breathed in by the potential jurors for a lifetime before they ever sit down to hear lawyers discuss legal minutiae in a courtroom. It is invisible like air, too. So we have to use every venue posible to MAKE it visible, because that is our only chance and her only chance to take the power of this insidious idea away. Expose it.
A hell of a lot is at stake her, not just for her, but for all women, for all Black folk, and — though they don’t get it yet — for the whole working class.
So we need to say: These men will get every advantage not only of law but of dominant culture; and this woman has been painted in advance by thast same culture as un-rapable.
We don’t need to get wrapped around the axle now with the legal minutiae. That’s not where we can be most effective. That is the fixed game that we need to expose, and we can’t expose it from inside playing by the unwritten rules of that very game.
And we need to challenge the cultural nationalists, too. Because they are only articulating the same sexual protection racket that is part of our whole society, regardless of nationality. Women cannot achieve liberation within a system where the alternative to the fear of men raping them is dependence on men to protect them. This is nothing more than the preservation of male power, and the latter depends absolutely on the former. We cannot let this become some kind of dick contest between macho men, that displaces women and puts men’s prerogatives back at the center.
This thing at Duke — at least here in the Triangle, and especially in Durham — is an OJ moment, a kind of cultural Rorschach test. It is polarizing as hell, and it should be, and we should embrace that polarization because polarization makes people alert… even teachable for a moment.
Out job is to teach, and we do that by defending this sister in the cultural court that precedes the legal one.
10 April 2006, 8:43 amElaina:
Well put, Stan.
I gotta say, I been holding off on commenting on this one because it’s emotionally like TNT for me- all I seen about it or heard about it is where I’ve seen it on the news at work- and all I can do is hold myself while the cusswords stream up and out at the TV, at whoever is around.
Fraternity and athletic-club-related violence tears me up. I’ve talked with so many women who’ve been hurt by it. A couple of years ago, I was going through some emotional shit, and had just done my first Take Back the Night Event. I was enrolled in a graduate seminar on human rights, where we were required to read two books on genital cutting. I was having “attitude” problems, and exhibiting some “weird” behaviors- at work, walking around campus- but when I talked to the free counselor at the university about how I was feeling towards men, about how bristly and confrontational I got with these guys when they would rudely run into me, or shove me in a crowded space, or leer at me, or make fun of the way I looked- when I got to a point where I thought my “behavior” might put me in danger, I turned to counseling, ’cause I didn’t know what else to do- instead of canned psycho-babble response that I was used to, I got some real help and validation when my counselor told me that I wasn’t being “irrational.” That I was “absolutely right” to feel threatened and defensive, especially in a campus setting.
This is after an initial disillusionment with “counseling” (who’s previous answer to me being stressed was to cut back on my activism) and it was a breath of fresh air to hear that I wasn’t crazy, at least not on this point. The disturbing part is knowing and being told that there’s not too much that you can do about it, because if you do lash out or talk back, you’re basically putting yourself in harm’s way.
I used to do work with a group in TN that opposes the death penalty, because I’m against the death penalty in a capitalist system. I’ve written papers on it. It’s situations like the one at Duke that have forced me, many times, to reevaluate my position, though I still stand firm that under capitalism the legal system won’t deliver justice to those sorely in need of it.
Right now I’m thinking that these men, even the ones who stood by and didn’t stop what was happening, even the ones who maybe only watched, they’re ALL guilty of rape, and right now my gut and my heart tell me that they’re wasting precious oxygen and resources by being allowed to live.
After looking at my local “sex offender” registry, it seems that in TN law enforcement does a better job of castigating small-time drug dealers and meth addicts. You’re more likely to stay in jail longer for these kinds of offenses than if you commit a sex crime- sexual assault or statutory rape, say.
The law isn’t the place to look for guidance or comfort. It never has been.
I wish that we’d evolved to a point where “paranoia” over social upsurge as a reaction to rape wasn’t just a “white paranoia.” I wish you could call it “male paranoia,” if that makes sense. But we aren’t, because we don’t have the same kind of social upheaval around the issue of rape here, for some wacky reason. Men are very comfortable in that they don’t have to worry about riots and fires and losing their own personal property when a woman is raped and her attackers are set free. And I’m not saying that in any sort of attempt to negate the “blackness” of the woman who was brutally attacked at Duke. This “black-woman”-ness will be key in the white-male defense strategy, because defense attourneys can play on all the preconcieved notions that the white-male-centric legal system holds when it comes to people that aren’t white and aren’t men.
That said, my hope is that these fuckwads get the steepest sentence imaginable that’s available for what they’ve done. I don’t think what’s available is enough, but that’s my humble opinion, I guess.
I hope that my sister in NC comes out of this whole thing as close to “OK” as she can. Her life’s been permanently changed at the whim of privileged white debauchery. I fucking hate that. Hate it like crazy, and I hate it more and more every second of the day; as a result I turn the mirror to myself to see what it is I can do, on a day-to-day level, with my life and myself to stop this system that just acts as fucking anal-ease for men who feel like doing this sort of thing. I think that if I’m doing that, then all the men, radical or not, leftist or not, all the men reading this blog need to be doing the same thing. I hope that’s happening. It seems like it, from the commentary here.
I might comment more later. Right now I gotta go and fight the man.
10 April 2006, 2:01 pmeric:
No DNA evidence, photographic evidence that the woman was injured prior to the party, and an interview with the “victim”’s friend who said she heard nothing about a rape that night.
why is this D.A. pushing forward with a potentially bogus, completely fictitious charge? Because his election is on May 3rd. Nothing more.
If a crime occured, I hope those responsible pay the price. I (and many others now) am starting to see that the real crime may have been a false accusation.
12 April 2006, 10:17 amKeefe:
I cannot believe that this case is playing out like it is. I thought our justice system was INNOCENT until proven, not GUILTY until proven innocent!!! All this woman did was make a accusation. Just because she accused the Lacross team does not mean they did it. Maybe they didn’t put enough money in her g-string that night and she got mad so she made up a story about getting raped. Did anyone ever think of that? If you can believe that the Duke Lacrosse players are so evil they are capable of gang rapping a woman, than you must be able to believe that this woman is evil enough to be capable of fabricating this entire story. She could have also been rapped by someone before the Duke party or after the Duke party, and instead of accusing that or those man/men, she goes and accuses the rich white kids from Duke. If the rape story is believable, then her making it up is believable. Accusations are just that, accusations. You cannot put a man in jail because some disgruntled stripper has a grudge because the rich white kids didn’t open up their wallets enough to make her happy. If the media and readers on here can drag the players through the mud, this woman can be drug through it also. Technically, she was a stripper and every man knows what happens when a drunk stripper comes to your private residence, and it usually is worse than what happens at a strip club. Obviously, rape is one of the most terrible things ever, and when I am older and have a daughter, if anyone rapes her, I will do whatever it takes to get that man in jail, but the way this case is being handled in the media and on sites like these, it angers me because these boys’ lives are being destroyed yet somenow the evidence is proving their innocence. How is that? How can evidence be proving their innocence, yet the majority thinks they are guilty. Why? Just because this woman said so? That is not a good enough reason, or the USA is heading down a slippery slope where any woman can accuse any man or any number of men of rapping her and they are automatically guilty. Obviously that can never happen so you must stop using accusatory terms when speaking about these boys. They are INNOCENT until proven guilty, not the other way around
12 April 2006, 10:31 amKeefe:
After reading a little more or the comments on this page, I have a question. Because a lot of african-americans on this site, (Yolanda, Stan) are already 100% positive that the Duke guys did it, what are you gonna do if it comes back that she was raped by a black man or black men? You are racist because you are already pulling out all the stops when belittling the Lacrosse team, so therefore, you should be just a ruthless if/when it comes out that she wasn’t raped by a white man/men, but by a black man/men. I mean, how many rapes have been black on black? How many rapes have been white on white? Why should this rape cause such a stir mainly because of the combination of skin colors? Shouldn’t we be in uproar that a WOMAN was brutally raped, not in uproar because it was a black woman and white men? To move past these racial tensions people have to learn to let this shit go. The longer everyone makes it a point to highlight the skin color of the parties involved, the longer it will take to equality.
12 April 2006, 10:47 amStan:
Have either of you white GUYS read what was written here?
Racial “tensions”? What ever happened to white supremacy? Patriarchy? That is what we are talking about.
These privileged boys will get every advantage offered by liberal law.
“OUR justice system” is not everybody’s justice system.
The sister is already being tried, however, by a white male culture that doesn’t consider Black women or sex workers to be rape-able. We are dealing with THAT trial first… then we’ll get to the minutiae of this other trial, when we’ve heard from more than these spoiled racist brats’ defense lawyers.
Read before you write, and your words will be more appropriate… tho less revealing.
12 April 2006, 2:08 pmYolanda Carrington:
First of all, Keefe, STAN is NOT Black; he is definitely a WHITE MAN. But yes, I’m Black, so what’s your point here?
I am in an uproar (if you want to use sensationalist terms like that) because a WOMAN said that MEN raped her and used racist slurs against her. There is reported evidence from a rape kit that indicates she was violently assaulted. I am also in an “uproar, sir, because victims of rape are always vilified as liars and whores by people who defend male supremacy.
Keefe, your phrase “combination of skin colors” is a highly offensive description, but I’ll go ahead and address your assumptive question about why race matters. In the United States—especially here in the South—White men have a long history of violently assaulting women of color. Rape was a critical weapon that White men have used against Black women since the days of slavery and Jim Crow, and until the last twenty-five years or so, White men have almost NEVER been charged with raping Black women. Black women also have to deal with the presumption by the legal system and everybody else that we CANNOT BE RAPED by ANYBODY, because we are seen as sexually available to any asshole out there who wants to fuck. This is why Black women are very reluctant to report rape and sexual abuse to the police.
Do you understand now why this is such a problem?
Keefe, I’ll go ahead and assume your a White man here. Right? Good. Okay, when the day comes that White men are targeted for rape, sexual abuse, economic exploitation, and violent bashing by women or people of color, I hope you can learn to “let this shit go” yourself. In the meantime, I suggest that you refrain from dicating to oppressed people about how we should respond to our oppression. Thank you very much.
Yolanda
12 April 2006, 2:28 pmfrank:
Keefe,
Stan and the others are right-the mechanism of legal privilege for these guys is already in place, and judged by the latest headlines, it’s working perfectly in their favor already; it’s moneyed influence at it’s best(worst?), plain and simple, and Yolanda is spot on in her reference to the fact that the mechanism has been in place for a long time-I mean, we’re talking about southern states here, the land of dixie, hushpuppies, and “Forget, Hell” bumper stickers. Unless you’ve been living in a yurt on the steppes of Mongolia for the past fifty years, you know what I’m talking about.
But, to add to the confusion of the case is the two days lapse of response from local authorities in Durham, as yet no word from the victim, and then there’s that creepy e-mail from one of the Duke lacrosse players a few hours after the party.
But hey! the coach of the team quit/resigned-maybe he knows something that we don’t.
Yeah, the issue is the privilege afforded these guys. Upper-class, white, male Vs. Working class, black,female, no?
Frank
12 April 2006, 5:12 pmKeefe:
Yolanda, I in no way am trying to offend or anger you, I believe that we can have an amazing conversation about this as two mature adults, because you have a perspective that I do not and will not ever have, a black woman. Also, you are from the south, and I am from the north, so I will not pretend that I know the way things are down there because I am not from there. I think that you can really enlighten me on a controversial subject from another point of view. I wish I could rewrite my opionion again, but I cannot so I will try to clarify where I am stand on this case again because I want you to really understand where I stand.
The doctors that worked on her stated that she was in bad shape, so obviously something bad happened to her. Was it rape, or was it rough sex, or was it something in between? We do not know and we may never know but what we must do is believe innocent until proven guilty. It seems that everyone who believes the charges wants the boys behind bars this second, but it cannot be like that, our justice system can never be like that. How many times do we have to see a bad movie take on the Witch Hunts in Salem. Accusations are just that, accusations, and if we put everyone in jail that was accused of something, how free would we really be? When the DA and the participating detectives find more evidence that warrants an arrest, they will arrest the people it incriminates. But to demand that the boys accused be thrown in jail right now, is just ridiculous. If the evidence proves that these boys are guilty, I will be right there in line with everyone assuming their guilt now, but how many of those assuming guilt now can say that if the evidence proves that it was actually another person not affilated with the Duke Lacrosse team, will offer their forgivness to the team? No one is worthy of judging others and their situations so I will not even begin to discuss the woman’s criminal history, chosen occupation, etc. but we must show the boy’s the same respect until the jury finds them guilty. Imagine that someone was accusing you of something you did not do, how would you want others to react to you and your situation? You would want them to look at it with an open mind and to listen to both sides of the story, right? Can’t we just let the justice system play out before we demand these boys’ heads? I hope we can.
What I did say is that we must believe these boys are innocent until proven guilty. Were you there that night Violet? Nope, you weren’t and neither was I. Who are you to say that the woman is telling the truth and the boys are lying? Who am I to say that the boys are telling the truth and the woman is lying? What I am saying is that we must hold off our accusations and not make up our minds that it is these boys just because of accusations. How do you know that she wasn’t raped after she left the house and was mad at the Duke team for not giving her more money? How do you know that for 100% sure that the boys did actually rape her? Only the woman and the boys know exactly what happened that night. There are a lot of holes right now and until those holes are filled we can’t judge anyone. Are you willing to apologize to the boys if it comes out that she is lying? If it comes out that the boys did rape her, I will be right there demanding justice. But I will hold off my judgement until I learn more.
12 April 2006, 5:36 pmKeefe:
I apologize about the name typo in the last paragraph, I wrote Violet and meant Yolanda, I am sorry about that, just a typo.
12 April 2006, 5:41 pmStan:
Frank & Keefe,
No one is debating the details of what happened that night. You’re right. We don’t know. But here’s what we do know, and it’s why we are not cleaving to empirical legalistic formulae that call white supremacy “racial tension,” or patriarchy “the presumption of innocence.”
We know that fewer than 4% of reported rapes are false claims. We know that worldwide, at LEAST 1 women in 3 has been beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused in her lifetime… usually by a family member. We know that 91% of victims of rape are female, 9% are male and 99% of offenders are male. We know that 77% of rapes are committed by someone known to the person raped. We know that quarter of a million rapes and sexual assaults are committed against victims over the age of 12 in the US in 2001. Almost three quarters of a millionn women in the US each year, but that number is probably wildly nder the actual number because it is based on reported cases, which are probably the minority. We know that only 2% of rapists are convicted and imprisoned. We know that reported (reported) rape victimization by race is: 34% of American Indian/Alaska Native; 24% women of mixed race; 19% of African American women; 18% of white women; 8% of Asian/Pacific Islander women. We know that in a study of 6,000 students at 32 colleges in the US, 1 in 4 women had been the victims of rape or attempted rape. We know that 13% of college women indicated they had been forced to have sex in a dating situation. We know that at colleges in the US, 42% of rape victims told no-one and only 5% reported it to the police. We know that — when surveyed — 1 in 12 male students surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape. We know that in a survey of college males who committed rape, 84% said what they did was definitely not rape. We know that in a study of 477 male students, mostly 1st and 2nd year students, found 56% reported instances of non-assaultive coercion to obtain sex. Examples included: threatening to end a relationship; falsely professing love; telling lies to render her more sexually receptive. We know that of the 22 substances used in drug facilitated rape, alcohol is the most common finding in investigations.
These are not just rape statistics. They are patriarchy statistics.
So we also know that men are the norm in society, and women are measured against them. We know that men control the insitutional power in society, and that in US society, that also means white men. We know that male sexuality is constructed as domination, and therefore aggression. We know that common stereotypes of Black women make it less egregious to rape a Black woman, especially if the rapist is a whtie man, and the conviction rates are stunningly low. We know that rape victims are NOT afforded the presumption of innocence, especially when she is seen as “tainted” or “fallen,” like an exotic dancer.
But even more importantly, and this is where you two fellas are out of the pool so far, and why we want to invite you into the pool, so to speak. It is precisely the way that law operates in a society that is under the control of powerfully rich, white men that protects and reproduces poverty, white supremacy, and patrirachy — which is exaclty why an appeal to the law and the purported standards of “equality” before the law (which are no such thing in the real world) is an appeal to the status quo. That status quo does not place this working class Black woman from Central on a level playing field (to use a hackneyed sports analogy) with white male Dukies.
Our system is one that gives everyone an abstract “equality” that refuses to allow any legal intervention into actually-existing inequality. White supremacy is a real system of unequal social power that operates before the law is triggered. Patriarchy is a system that is real, and it operates WAY before the law is triggered. Think about this, and you’ll see that we are not challenging you on the specifics of this case, but to think of all the ways this sister is disadvantaged BEFORE the law ever kicks in, and before this incident took place.
12 April 2006, 6:44 pmfrank:
Uh, yeah Stan, I get it. Believe me, I know what the issue is here. I know that this sister is going uphill to begin with. That’s why I was pissed off to hear about it in the first fucking place. But short of sending all the rich, powerful, old-school-thinking white dudes who run the system to the moon, I’d rather try and work within “the system” to effect change in my immediate world. For all the blessings that I’ve been given, a wonderful family, my health, a decent job, I still feel lumped into the growing category of working class poor-people who work constantly but don’t own jack shit. Not yet anyway. So, I get it Stan. And for now, I’ll just keep learning and stick with fighting racism and sexism in any form, and if I ever have the fortune of raising kids I’ll make sure that they are raised with the same values that I was. I think that’s about all I can say.
12 April 2006, 7:59 pmDeAnander:
Are Women Human?
Of all the provocative passages in Catharine MacKinnon’s new book Are Women Human? the following hit me hardest. She writes: “[T]he fact that the law of rape protects rapists and is written from their point of view to guarantee impunity for most rapes is officially regarded as a violation of the law of sex equality, national or international, by virtually nobody.”
The woman pressing charges in the Duke case has three strikes against her at the very least: she is female, she is Black, and she is a “sex worker,” each one of these eroding its share of her presumed humanity under the law and in received opinion.
MacKinnon’s answer to her book’s title, Are Women Human? is no. She writes: “If women were human, would we be a cash crop shipped from Thailand in containers into New York’s brothels? Would we be sexual and reproductive slaves? Would we be bred, worked without pay our whole lives, burned when our dowry money wasn’t enough or when men tired of us, starved as widows when our husbands died (if we survived his funeral pyre)? …”
[…]
“The assumption,” she says, “is that women can be unequal to men economically, socially, culturally, politically, and in religion, but the moment they have sexual interactions, they are free and equal. That’s the assumption - and I think it ought to be thought about, and in particular what consent then means. It means acquiescence. It means passivity. You can be semi-knocked out. You can be dead in some jurisdictions.”
I almost choke on my mineral water. Dead and giving consent? “Sex with a dead body is necrophilia but it isn’t regarded as rape.” Oh, I see. “You can be semi-comatose, not to mention married in many places, and be regarded as consenting whenever sex takes place.”
MacKinnon thinks consent in rape cases should be irrelevant. Women are so unfree that even if a woman is shown to have given consent to sex, that should never be enough to secure an acquittal. Why? “My view is that when there is force or substantially coercive circumstances between the parties, individual consent is beside the point; that if someone is forced into sex, that ought to be enough. The British common law approach has tended to be that you need both force and absence of consent. If we didn’t have so much pornography in society and people actually believed women when they said they didn’t consent, that would be one thing. But that isn’t what we’ve got.”
What does she mean - how does pornography affect this? “Pornography affects people’s belief in rape myths. So for example if a woman says ‘I didn’t consent’ and people have been viewing pornography, they believe rape myths and believe the woman did consent no matter what she said. That when she said no, she meant yes. When she said she didn’t want to, that meant more beer. When she said she would prefer to go home, that means she’s a lesbian who needs to be given a good corrective experience. Pornography promotes these rape myths and desensitises people to violence against women so that you need more violence to become sexually aroused if you’re a pornography consumer. This is very well documented.”
And if she’s a stripper? then she already is pornography, in the minds of millions.
Can this woman possibly obtain a fair trial?
12 April 2006, 8:05 pmStan:
My bad, Frank. I was talking to ERIC and Keefe. Sorry.
12 April 2006, 8:44 pmJulian Real:
Frank’s comment:
If I’m standing next to a white guy who casually complains about the brown people in an offensive manner(happened last week) and I slap him and holler at him, what does that accomplish? He’ll just steer clear of me. It’d be nice if he reconsiders his opinion, but he has to be re-programmed. He’s learned that shit from somewhere.
To Frank: Why does men confronting one another, or holding one another accountable around race and sex seem always to mean violence on the part of the man doing the confronting. I’ve encountered this reaction so many times that I believe it speaks to something deep in the psychie’s of patriarchal men, and their deep fears of other men. Confrontation can be any manner of communication, verbal and non-verbal. I prefer verbal, but sometimes walking out of a room is the best I can do. I’ve never hit or yelled at any man who was being sexist or racist.
My next question is, do you make it a prerequisite of being friends with males that they too make themselves–the spaces within and around them interpersonally and socially– misogyny and sexism, racism and ethnic bigotry free zones? If not, please explain why.
And thank you for confronting those you do on their sexism and racism.
12 April 2006, 11:30 pmJulian Real:
Stan’s comment: Exotic dancers, prostitutes, and wives are also considered un-rapable.
As Dworkin and MacKinnon astutely note, women as a class are considered unrapable. There are additional factors which add to the presumed inhumanity of women, such as race, class, and profession. But all women are presumed guilty of false accusations until it is proven otherwise. In white male supremacist courts, and in this case we’re discussing in particular, I’d wager that a Black woman has little to no chance of obtaining a fair trial against white male Duke students. I am not presuming anything in terms of guilt or innoncence. Those white guys know what they did, and I bet if we had the videotape, which perhaps one of them does, for the fun of it all, we’d know that they are likely guilty of treating a Black woman as a sex-thing. In my mind, that’s a violation of a human being’s human rights.
12 April 2006, 11:34 pmJulian Real:
By Keefe: Technically, she was a stripper and every man knows what happens when a drunk stripper comes to your private residence, and it usually is worse than what happens at a strip club. Obviously, rape is one of the most terrible things ever, and when I am older and have a daughter, if anyone rapes her, I will do whatever it takes to get that man in jail[…]
To Keefe:
Help me out here, what is it that “every man knows” re: women who are performing sexxxually for men? And, please own your residence. No strippers have been to mine. Please don’t speak for all men. Unfortunately, I think you speak for far too many men.
And, to whom is it obvious that rape is one of the most terrible things ever? To strip club owners, who make women perform blow-jobs in order to be hired? To date rapists? To husbands who force sex? To incest perpetrators? To child molesters? To stranger rapists? To men who climb into women’s residences to assault them? To men who enjoy the “sexiness” of women beyond all other dimensions and human qualities? To men who, in a study, said they would rape if there were no negative consequences to the rapers? To college men who do sexually assault and sexually harass women, and use them as sexxx-things? To judges and juries who have, historically, found that Black women cannot be raped by white property-owning men? To corporate pimps like Larry Flynt?
I would argue that it is a vastly minority view “rape is one of the most terrible things ever” and the utter ubiquity of rape is the evidence. Clearly someone did not get your memo.
12 April 2006, 11:44 pmJulian Real:
By Keefe:
You cannot put a man in jail because some disgruntled stripper has a grudge because the rich white kids didn’t open up their wallets enough to make her happy.
They are INNOCENT until proven guilty, not the other way around.
Later by Keefe:
But I will hold off my judgement until I learn more.
It seems to me you are doing a lot of judging here, but only of one side of things, which I find politically curious and revealing. And, for the legal record, rapists are not innocent until proven guilty. If they raped, they are guilty of rape, regardless of what a court trial shows.
By Keefe:
We do not know and we may never know but what we must do is believe innocent until proven guilty.
Why? How does it serve you to believe in the innocence of charged sex offenders when, in the U.S., given what many here have said, the courts and law are set up to the overwhelming benefit of white property-owning men?
I will use my knowledge and every other resource to determine my view on situations like this. And there’s nothing illegal about me doing so. If I want to call a man guilty because I am convinced of his guilt, I will do so. I will tell you this: I cannot imagine that those Duke whiteboys have not taken advantage of women sexually, or mistreated women, especially those women who work in the sexxxism industries. That’s my determination, based on a lot of experience dealing with college-attending white males. And why do I point out their race? Because of the thousands of times I’ve heard white people mention that the man who committed a crime was (sometimes in a hushed tone…) “Black”. If you are offended at race being dragged into things, I’m assuming you must have your hands full dealing with those white folks who need to mention the race of a presumed-guilty-before-trial Black male in Amerikkka.
12 April 2006, 11:54 pmJulian Real:
By Keefe:
It seems that everyone who believes the charges wants the boys behind bars this second, but it cannot be like that, our justice system can never be like that. How many times do we have to see a bad movie take on the Witch Hunts in Salem.
Let’s keep in mind, nine million women were destroyed, often burned or drowned, as witches by white/European property-owning men, who suspected that such women had the power to steel one’s penis in the night. These “rational” white men gathered up many women for many reasons–many of the women burned were living independently of men. The lot of raped women is much closer in your analogy (to how women were treated as presumed-guilty-until-dead witches) than the lot of white property-owning men, who designed something called the Constitution, and wrote laws never intended to acknowlege Black people, or white women, as human, or fully human. This is the legacy in the U.S.
By Keefe:
No one is worthy of judging others and their situations so I will not even begin to discuss the woman’s criminal history, chosen occupation, etc.
Then why are your comments filled with cloaked and not-so-cloaked judgments about women sex workers?
By Keefe: […] but we must show the boy’s the same respect until the jury finds them guilty.
We must show men the same respect as women in the U.S.? If that were the case, we’d assume those college males were dishonest, conniving, manipulative, lying schemers, wouldn’t we? We must show whites the same respect as we show Blacks in Amerikkka? Those whiteguys would be noosed and hangin’ from trees, if that were the case. Exactly which country are you referring to when you make such comments?
By Keefe:
Imagine that someone was accusing you of something you did not do, how would you want others to react to you and your situation? You would want them to look at it with an open mind and to listen to both sides of the story, right? Can’t we just let the justice system play out before we demand these boys’ heads? I hope we can.
While some here have already spoken to this, I’ll add my two cents: your assumptions about a fair and just system into which this case falls, is simply indefensible. But please do try and defend it, if you wish. The courts are notoriously racist, sexist, and classist. So, as Stan notes, “just letting the justice system play out” means we would be insane not to assume that a Black woman sex worker’s word is spit in the wind in a whitemale supremacist criminally-unjust criminal justice system, and wealthy white male Duke students will have such overwhelmingly well-trained defense attorneys–a slew of ‘em–at their disposal to refute and bombard all evidence the prosecutors present. Let’s let the white guys have an overworked state-appointed attorney, and let the woman have access the best prosecutors money can buy, and then seen how “fair” white men think that trial will be.
By Keefe:
I apologize about the name typo in the last paragraph, I wrote Violet and meant Yolanda, I am sorry about that, just a typo.
As a part-time editor, that’s no typo. How you pulled “Violet” from “Yolanda” is beyond me. Both names have an “o” and and “l”. You call that a typo? A typo is spelling her name Yollanda. Just to be clear.
13 April 2006, 12:15 amfrank:
cool-no worries Stan,thanks.
13 April 2006, 1:48 amI was thinking a while ago, (again, as a white male) about how what started as a discussion around a despicable act is evolving into a lesson for those less informed, or less aware, of the everyday existence in the world for millions of women. I take the facts heard on this panel to heart, and think long about them when I see the faces of so many women that I pass by everyday, unknown to me. It is real. And as shown by the reason for this discussion, happened last week-or yesterday. It’s bullshit, and at the least, the male human species needs to be made aware of this fact, that rape continues, and it isn’t fucking cool at all and it certainly isn’t OK. Perhaps, I’m sure, there are those among the large segment of the white male population in the US ,as fortunate as I, not to have experienced this madness firsthand; but if they knew that it was going down and did nothing, they are complicit. I know that my own mother and my baby sister went through some shit, at the hand of those they trusted and believed truly loved them(and surely at this very moment, although I do not know the details, and don’t care to, it has shaped my perspective on gender). So with the knowledge of the past, with the help and contributions to this discussion of those better informed than I, and the events in NC last week, regardless of a legal definition, or the reliance on the american judicial system to form an opinion, I know that I must continue to stand up to any form of oppression against the woman.
If it weren’t for my own Ma, I wouldn’t be here writing this, and I am glad to. Happy Birthday Ma. I love you.
Curt:
“We know that reported (reported) rape victimization by race is: 34% of American Indian/Alaska Native; 24% women of mixed race; 19% of African American women; 18% of white women; 8% of Asian/Pacific Islander women.”
I was shocked by these statistics. I would have expected white and black women to be the highest victims of rape. Are native American women really the most victimized that one-third of the rapes are perpetrated against them? Sorry about my ignorance, but is this taking place on reservations?
13 April 2006, 7:20 amfrank:
To Julian,
I suppose that I do make that prerequisite a condition of friendship, but that’s why I have very few close friends; I’m an aggressive person. The military fostered and encouraged that trait. And presently I’m trying to unlearn that shit.
To quote Jeff Jones, I identify with the following:
–My life describes the stories of boys and men for thousands of years: boys who were beaten by their fathers, boys whose capacity for love and trust was crippled almost at birth. Men, whose best hope for contact with other human beings lay in detachment, as if life were over. It’s how we keep, in turn, from destroying our own children and terrorizing the women who have the misfortune to love us, how we absent ourselves from the tradition of male violence, how we decline the seduction of revenge. ___AFFLICTION
So, there it is.
13 April 2006, 11:21 amAudrey:
It bears repeating that there’s a difference between the number of victims, and the number of victims who report it. It’s impossible to say until it happens, but I don’t think I would report it. I’ve seen how the courts treat rape victims. Wait, scratch that. Not victims. Witnesses. In a rape case (at least where my sister was raped, I won’t claim to be a legal expert here), the state is the victim, the woman is merely a witness to the crime against the state. I could go on about the implications of that, but I won’t.
This isn’t the nicest of stories, but I’m going to tell it anyway for the benefit of those who haven’t seen up close how the system works. My sister was walking home in the evening (11 pm) from her art studio. She was dressed like a typical painter, sweatshirt, paint spattered overalls. A car pulls over, there’s a man, woman, and infant in it. The guy rolls down the window, says it’s not too safe to be walking around here alone late at night, do you need a lift home? She gratefully accepts the ride.
She gets in, the guy pulls a knife on her, takes her back to his place. The woman from the car, it turns out, is an accomplice; she acts as the guard in the next room (while babysitting the infant). So my sister is repeatedly raped during the night, at knife point. During the rape, he is caressing her stomach, talking about some puppy whose belly he slit, talking about the other women he’s raped and murdered - nice stream of consciousness rant. My sister talks her way into being released the next morning - a miracle, really.
She files a police report, like proper women are trained to do, and they’re able to track him down easily because she was taken to his house. First off, the papers she files include her full name and address, and the rapist gets a copy of all that. So she’s living alone, and now the guy who’s raped her and claims to be a serial killer knows how to find her and has a motive for revenge. So to get to her mental state by the time the trial comes around, you have to picture her sitting in a rocking chair by her apartment door, with a butcher knife in her lap, waiting. And listening. Night after night.
Actually, “by the time the trial comes around” is misleading. There was a hearing, but no trial. The rapist has the right to hire his own lawyer (though I’m not sure this one did). She doesn’t have a lawyer. Witnesses don’t get lawyers. The attorney describes to the court how she was walking home alone, provocatively dressed, at 5am in the morning. In reality, she was walking home at 11pm when she was abducted, and walked home at 5am after escaping - but the lawyer tells the court she was walking home at 5am, leaving the impression that she was out all hours of the night - obviously looking for trouble, right? What else would a single woman be doing out all night and coming home at that hour, unless she was out having sex? After all, she was “provocatively dressed” (overalls and a sweatshirt, mind you), walking the streets at night, getting into strangers’ cars. We all know what that means.
I saw she posted about the bail hearing on another site recently. She described the disconnect between the events that happened, and the spin the attorneys were putting on it. This is a snippet from the hearing:
Her: So then he took out the knife … threatened to kill me … put his other hand around me.
Attorney: So the two of you were hugging. What happened next?
(Read those last two lines again, and see if you can understand why a whole mess of us, myself included, aren’t inclined to believe a damned thing that comes out of the mouths of either attorney in the Duke case.)
Months pass. The trial itself is postponed, rescheduled, postponed again. A full year goes by. She’s pissed off and wants to know when are they having the trial. The court’s response is that since so much time has elapsed, they won’t bother with it. They assume the accused has jumped bail at that point. They don’t send him a summons, won’t even drive by his house to check if he’s maybe still living there, nothing. It’s over.
13 April 2006, 12:16 pmJulian Real:
If you are doing no harm to women or children, and are calling men on racism and sexism, and are not using porn, I’ll be your friend.
Good luck with the struggles to let go of the violent stuff from the past. It’s all such tough work, but so worth it. Living a humane life is a wonderful thing.
Take care.
13 April 2006, 12:37 pmJulian Real:
P.S. to Frank.
Happy Birthday to your Mom. I hope she is well.
And I really am extending a hand in friendship.
13 April 2006, 12:41 pmJulian Real:
To Curt.
See, for example: http://tps.sagepub.com/cgi/content/short/42/2/242
Transcultural Psychiatry, Vol. 42, No. 2, 242-271 (2005)
DOI: 10.1177/1363461505052667
© 2005 McGill University
Prostitution in Vancouver: Violence and the Colonization of First Nations Women
Melissa Farley
Prostitution Research and Education, San Francisco, mfarley@prostitutionresearch.com
Jacqueline Lynne
Vancouver, British Colombia
Ann J. Cotton
University of Washington, Seattle
We interviewed 100 women prostituting in Vancouver, Canada. We found an extremely high prevalence of lifetime violence and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Fifty-two percent of our interviewees were women from Canada’s First Nations, a significant overrepresentation in prostitution compared with their representation in Vancouver generally(1.7-7%). Eighty-two percent reported a history of childhood sexual abuse, by an average of four perpetrators. Seventy-two percent reported childhood physical abuse, 90% had been physically assaulted in prostitution, 78% had been raped in prostitution. Seventy-two percent met DSM-IV criteria for PTSD. Ninety-five percent said that they wanted to leave prostitution. Eighty-six percent reported current or past homelessness with housing as one of their most urgent needs. Eighty-two percent expressed a need for treatment for drug or alcohol addictions. Findings are discussed in terms of the legacy of colonialism, the intrinsically traumatizing nature of prostitution and prostitution’s violations of basic human rights.
13 April 2006, 4:00 pmDeAnander:
@Curt I think you may be misinterpreting the stats. I read them as “X percent of the population of Ethnicity Y women,” in other words, of those women who are identified by bureaucrats as First Nations people, the percentage of their demographic who suffers rape (37) is about twice the percentage (18) of rape survivors among the demographic of “white” women (even though there are more “white” women numerically). This is quite different from the (imho incorrect) interpretation that “of all women raped in the US, 37 percent are Native American and only 18 percent are white” which is I think is how you may have read it… it means that Native women are more likely to be raped, and this is not too surprising. Bantustan conditions are conducive to rape and femicide.
Stan, of you could footnote those stats you’d be doing the world a favour. They are constantly being “questioned” (i.e. undermined, obfuscated, BS’d and denied) by misogynists of every political stripe [gee if one really wanted to be a Uniter, one could prolly found a Men’s Misogynist Party and bring Lefty and Righty guys together in one big happy group hug].
… wow, that makes me think of a culture jam that might be kinda fun if I had the spare time. Create stationery, a paypal and bank acct, membership cards and a web site for the Male Supremacy Association (gotta pick a better, more euphemistic and grandiose name), and start mailing cover letters and invitations to join to men who have visibly distinguished themselves as candidates. Solicit donations. Write one of those godawful formula “begging letters”. Fill a sidebar with distinguished existing members and their accomplishments and publications… oh my yes, this could be a lot of fun for a merry band of young Riot Grrrlz with too much free time and energy — or better yet, young “brothers in disarms” — the job of afflicting the genitally comfortable oughta fall to the boyz, no?
13 April 2006, 4:57 pmJulian Real:
Hi Audrey.
How horrible.
I wish that story were unique–one horrifying incident amidst a world of kindness towards strangers, but anyone who’s living in the real world knows that your sister’s experience is women’s experience, with more or less gruesome variations on terrifying and dehumanizing themes.
MacKinnon is right: most nation-states, and their systems, are overtly male supremacist (and the U.S. State is whitemale supremacist). Dworkin was right: women live in the equivalent of a police state, with curfews and conditions which render them utterly unfree.
How it is that the male Left doesn’t seem to notice this, is an indicator that men cannot see realities that threaten their privilege, even when not seeing this threatens everyone’s humanity.
One day the world will be free from all rape and sexual coercion and exploitation. One day. It may require all of humanity to disappear, however, if the Right and Left have anything to say about it.
To the poster earlier here who was concerned about his daughter’s safety: teach her how to use a firearm. She doesn’t need you to protect her if she is just fine taking care of herself.
Women have as much right to defend themselves by any means necessary as any other group.
13 April 2006, 9:53 pmStan:
Some of us males on the left see it. More all the time. That’s one reason this blog exists. The remarks about gender at CUNY were presented not only to a largely male, largely military veteran audience, it was sponsored and planned by a left organization. And it was very well received. The reason I aim most of my gender discourse at the left is that part of being on the left is being part of a liberatory project… and being self-critical is part of the culture. The first males who have to be recruited to feminism must be the left. McKinnon and Pateman are both quite fluent in a marxist idiom.
13 April 2006, 10:53 pmAudrey:
Hi Julian. You’re right, there’s nothing unique in that story about my sister, just variations in the details. I should probably be clear about the reason I posted specifics of the rape itself - it’s not to say she had it better or worse than any other victim. It was to emphasize that this was the best case scenario for prosecution - the classic winnable rape case: kidnapping with a weapon, by a complete stranger, where the stranger is later identified.
And yet they still managed to reduce her to one of those un-rapable people once she hit the courtroom. That was without being a stripper, without being black, without having gone voluntarily to the residence. If you add in those variables, or date rape, or drinking, or wearing the wrong clothes or wearing the wrong makeup or having dated one too many men in your past, your chances of successfully prosecuting go down … and it’s hard to imagine sinking down from a position of no power at all.
Keefe said earlier that the accused need to be considered Innocent Until Proven Guilty. That statement assumes that innocence or guilt is in some way relevant in a rape trial. It’s not. It’s completely dwarfed by the larger issue of Women Ask For It.
If you view rape as a crime of power and aggression against women, then it’s pretty hard to view the rape trial as anything other than a second rape. That’s the issue I struggle with. As much as I’d like to envision prosecuting the rapist as something that empowers the victim, the reality is that it strips away what little remaining power she has. I have a hard time seeing the difference between wandering down an abandoned street alone late at night dressed in a sheer miniskirt and heels, and wandering into a courtroom - potential rape situation either way. We’re taught that prosecuting is the responsible thing to do, get the guy off the street so some other woman isn’t his next victim, but I can’t shake the perception that walking into that courtroom is the ultimate example of Women Asking For It.
14 April 2006, 1:38 amYolanda Carrington:
Happy Friday folks,
I’ve intentionally laid off the comments for a couple of days, to see what other folks had to say. I’m extremely heartened by the insights from Elaina, Frank, DeAnander, Julian, Audrey (special solidarity with you and your sister, and with all women and survivors), and of course, Stan. I can only hope that men and white folks, but especially all the WHITE MEN out there who swear by “innocent until proven guilty” were listening to y’all’s words. Them guys need to learn sooner than later that THEIR system of justice is NOT OURS.
You all have no idea how close to home this case is for me. I attended NC Central myself a couple of years ago, and I was a struggling “older” student (a couple years over 22 don’t mean shit). When I heard that this sista was working in the goddamn sexxx industry to attend school and support two kids, I almost lost it. I don’t cry either, so expressing the pain and rage was extra tough. My mother was a survivor; she was assaulted long before she had kids, but the three of us still lived with the consequences of her assault. We still are.
Some of y’all may disagree with me here, but if I lose you, screw it. We need to DESTROY the sexxxism-entertainment industry, in all of its insidious manifestations. The shit ain’t nothing but gender Jim Crow (and no, I don’t apolgize one iota for the comparison—I’m a BLACK WOMAN and I LIVE this shit every damn day of my life). When I raised a criticism of the sexxxx industry the other night with a “comrade,” this person had the NERVE to defend the industry in the name of the sista who was attacked, as if her decision to dance “provacatively” for drunken racist bastards (no, I don’t apologize for this insult either—it fits) is a free “choice.” I had to sit there and listen to the same-old tired postmodern defense of the sexxxx industry that I always hear, but hearing the shit while thinking about the unimaginable trauma of this mother-sister-student, I wanted to crush somebody.
In his masterful piece about the immigrant rights struggle, Joaquin Bustelo paraphrases Roger B. Taney’s infamous curse to Dred Scott and the Black Nation: the Negro (or the immigrant) has no rights which the white man is bound to respect. None that he is bound to respect. Bound to respect. I’ve been turning these damn words over and over in my mind for months. Duke University, its esteemed men’s lacrosse team, and the man-on-the-street have made me finally face another rock-bottom truth: Women have none of these rights either.
Human rights. Les Droits de L’Homme et du Citoyen. The Declaration of Independence. The Constitution of the United States. The Bill of Rights. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Worthless. Worthless all.
Rape, misogyny, and white supremacy render Man’s declarations of humanity worthless.
One more thing: In oppression, there is no guilty or innocent. There is only oppressor and oppressed. Either you are one, or you are the other. That is as black and white as this world gets.
Yolanda
14 April 2006, 2:03 amDeAnander:
Yolanda you said it all.
14 April 2006, 4:02 pmfrank:
Hello All. Thank you Julian, and thanks from my Ma. I’m not into harming anyone; I don’t have the stomach for it ( although I DO from time to time think of a well-placed side kick to the head of mr. bush, certain duke lacrosse players, etc. for their utter disregard of common decency and humanity for their own gratification) But violence begets violence. I’m workin on it. Never really been into porn either, and certainly don’t use it. I’ve seen it and I liken it to something one might find on the bottom of their shoe.
I broached the subject of this issue of violence against women during a talk last night, with men from polar opposite cultural upbringings(East Oakland to the Oakland Hills). The common response was immediately one of disbelief at the audacity of the men involved, then turned to the mental state of the same. It’s sickness. A comment about the number of rape cases that never get reported-I believe very important as to why the sentencing isn’t as serious for rape as for, let’s say, assault with intent to kill. A few other comments from an affluent white guy, priveleged, as to the intracacies of a rape case involving alcohol, consent, which were brought in -
But the final analysis was “No means No”. So that was cool. I was glad to hear that from these guys, some of whom I consider friends, but I haven’t known them all that long. Then I started to think of the overall feminist approach to the problem of misogynistic violence. Julian, your earlier statement regarding the woman carrying arms made me think of Octavia Butler’s vision of the future. Maybe it’ll come to that. I’ll support it, always. And since it doesn’t seem like the powers that be even give a rat’s ass about the plight of women, what do the women here think? Is there a solution to this problem?
Like I said before, it seems never-ending and it’s very frustrating. I consider myself fortunate to have come across this blog and to hear from many others with a different perspective and much more learned than I. Thanks again.
Frank
15 April 2006, 1:03 amJulian Real:
Hi Frank.
You’re welcome. Many more happy, healthy years to your mother.
I stand strongly with Yolanda on the matter of the utterly racist, classist sexxxism industries: international adult and child pornography, prostitution, sex tourism, sex trafficking in women and children, and sexual slavery.
These industries and systems of oppression exist to exploit and degrade women’s humanity–to make some humans into political females, serving up this degraded human status as a sexy product, a hot thing, for men (and some women) to consume. I don’t exclude gay men from the consumer market, as they, too often, support and help maintain the industries that not only harm women and children but also many men.
See Catharine A. MacKinnon: “Women’s Lives, Men’s Laws”, and her most recent work: “Are Women Human?” Check out this webpage for more on that question:
http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/mackinnon/mackin1.html
See here for more of her books: http://xrl.us/kv6i
The reason the public–publicly or privately–question what the woman was doing when raped, is covering up the uncontested presumption of rape to begin with. It is not popularly argued or mandated, in other words, that a human mind/body/spirit ought never be treated in this way, but only under what conditions it should or shouldn’t be. There’s no international human right for women to not be raped/physically violated/sexually exploited and injured.
Re: ‘The common response was immediately one of disbelief at the audacity of the men involved, then turned to the mental state of the same. It’s sickness. A comment about the number of rape cases that never get reported-I believe very important as to why the sentencing isn’t as serious for rape as for, let’s say, assault with intent to kill. A few other comments from an affluent white guy, priveleged, as to the intracacies of a rape case involving alcohol, consent, which were brought in - But the final analysis was “No means No”.’
There are so many problems with how so many men, view the matter of rape. First, it is a function of a political (patriarchal) system, not an illness or psychological disorder, nor, simply, an overabundance of audacity, although of course audacity is one of many patriarchal male entitlements, not allowed for all men individually, but supported in and by men in a way it absolutely isn’t in women, as a class. (And, of course, some rapists are also mentally or emotionally unwell, but aren’t we all!!) The too typical–and responsibility-dissolving–male response: “That guy is sick” or “Those guys should be thrown in jail to get theirs” must be challenged by men as NOT THE KEY POINT or a reasonable solution. As stated earlier, I am not opposed to rapists being shot to death point blank. But such approaches only tend to be useful in rare and individual cases, they can often fail to be effective, and are not likely to be popularly perceived as necessary.
But, just for the sheer delight of it, see this poster:
http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/Porn/WASP2.html
The most salient point, for me, is that rapist values, habits, customs, and practices are endemic to CRAP (corporate racist atrocious patriarchy). In other patriarchal civilizations, other factors contribute to the reality of endemic rape; not all patriarchies work the same way, and some evolve/devolve in their misogynist tactics. In the U.S., for example, misogynist, racist pornography flourished as a direct response to and “productive” assault against the feminist movement in the 1970s which seriously challenged men’s rights to control and determine women’s human lives. The feminist argument was never that it is ONLY pornography that helps maintain and promote rape, including of those used inside the industry; the point was that rape and pornography are so intertwined both in terms of values, production, and use/abuse, that to get rid of rape, pornography will also have to go, as Yolanda says. Rape is a form of political terrorism, not something some strange twisted guys do, even while some strange twisted guys do it.
See, especially, for you and your male friends: Pornography: The Production and Consumption of Inequality, by Gail Dines, Robert Jensen, and Ann Russo. It is very accessible, and it succinctly and astutely addresses many of the most common liberal arguments for the maintenance of pornography. The book’s authors, like the feminist antipornography movement more generally, have never taken a censorship approach to dealing with the industry, preferring direct action and a civil rights/human rights perspective and strategy. But to hear the description of antipornography feminists in the media and in the academy, you’d think feminists were Stalinesque in their positions and expressions of power, and used power as he did or as the U.S. Right does. Feminists haven’t, and don’t. As Andrea Dworkin said in a speech to anti-sexist men:
‘I want to talk to you about equality, what equality is and what it means. It isn’t just an idea. It’s not some insipid word that ends up being bullshit. It doesn’t have anything at all to do with all those statements like: “Oh, that happens to men too.” I name an abuse and I hear: “Oh, it happens to men too.” That is not the equality we are struggling for. We could change our strategy and say: well, okay, we want equality; we’ll stick something up the ass of a man every three minutes.
You’ve never heard that from the feminist movement, because for us equality has real dignity and importance–it’s not some dumb word that can be twisted and made to look stupid as if it had no real meaning.’
For the whole speech see:
http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/WarZoneChaptIIIE.html
Rape requires the realisation of some pretty dehumanising ideas, made real through force (institutional and interpersonal), against children and female(d) adults: that women are “for” men, exist to be “beautiful”, “sexy”, etc. The sexxxism industries mass-market this “idea”. See “The Idea of Prostitution” by Sheila Jeffreys for much more on how the sexual use of women by men is maintained as a reality, and see also her more recent work, “Beauty and Misogyny: Harmful Cultural Practices in the West”. She effectively argues the weaknesses in the “choice” argument for women who are in sexxxism industries. It’s not that women in those industries have no agency; it’s rather that their agency, and the parameters of what they can choose to do and not do, has been so shaped by particular and systemic misogynist experience, as to make choosing to NOT ever be in or affected by those industries is not possible as a lived reality for women.
Men, and not a few women, often argue for women’s right to be subordinated in various ways, forgetting that patriarchy mandates it in the first place. This is a key point liberals tend to ignore.
Re: “No means no” and other standard argumentation about the notion of consent. These positions presume a great deal, and ignore a tremendous amount, about what women endure in their real lives. Standard consent arguments do account for the fact that much of what women experience in patriarchy is silencing, not given women a strong enough voice to intervene on some of the violence against them.
Some women do find this voice, and rage, but it is neither encouraged nor depicted, nor expressed by women survivors on daytime talk shows. Women are allowed to cry and show how harmed they have been, on Oprah, to name one of the better, more humanitarian and more popular U.S. talk shows. But women are not allowed, in popular media, to call for civil rights/human rights remedies to the problem of rape. Liberal psychotherapists, not feminist activists, are the spokespeople, the “experts” brought on to speak about women, generally discussing how to heal, not how to radically transform and/or destroy the patriarchal systems which use up women so callously and casually that it is a wonder anyone gives a shit about women’s humanity at all.
As it is, only privileged women–women privileged by race/ethnicity and class, are paid any attention to, or are obsessed about in the media. Note the unending story (with a different actual human being in the role) of the “abducted white middle class woman”, and how this never-ending news story functions as a quasi-lightning rod for “concern for women”, while the abduction, torture, starvation, rape, gross physical assault, emotional and spiritual neglect of women of Colour, and poor women, are rarely newsworthy, unless a hurricane happens upon an area where disenfranchised and otherwise invisibilised women live (and die at alarming rates).
What the “No means no” campaign leaves out is why some women say nothing at all. As a survivor of incest, child molestation, and sexual assault, I can also tell you that many survivors try and act out that abuse in destructive ways, while giving legal consent. What does the court system have to say about that? I’m still waiting for their answer.
18 April 2006, 3:44 amJen:
I have enjoyed reading all the comments here. As of a few days ago I hadn’t head a lot of anti-stripper rhetoric and then the floodgates opened wide. I won’t go into every one of them but I do want to highlight one, due to its wide audience. Savage Nation, to be exact its host Michael Savage, was recored by Media Matters. The word Durham dirtbag is thrown around as well as trashing the student body president of NCCU. here is the link http://mediamatters.org/items/200604140011 .(You can take my word or listen/read for yourself and get angry)
i bring this up as evidence to most everything a few on here have said (and most notably to myself Yolonda) in regards to an unrapeable status, gender issues, sexuality issues, class issues and race issues. Anyone who has listened to Savage nation once knows that Mr. Savage is not the kind of person to many on here would agree with anyway, but his audience is quite large and often drip with praise for him.
I can’t imagine too many disagreeing with his take on the situation while using it to bolser their own ideas and that is frightening.
How useful would it be if all this anger towards women who report rape was turned around on the men who commit rape?
If these allegations did turn out to be false would these same people say the players deserved it? They are rich white boys, they should have seen it coming? Why charge her with making a false allegation since they obviously put themselves in the place for her to make them? I mean they asked for it, right? Is that a cool breeze from hell I feel……….
18 April 2006, 2:02 pmfrank:
Excellent-that’s some good feedback Julian; fills in all those blanks of mine on the subject. I’m learning. I’ll continue to raise the issue of the patriarchal system and women as part of it with friends of mine, taking a cue from what you have put down here. Love the poster!
Finally, from the news that I’ve heard, two of the lacrosse players have been formally charged for the incident in March-no word as of yet on the third suspect. I hope this info helps the student from Central somehow, for whatever it’s worth. The damage is done.
Frank
18 April 2006, 2:54 pmDeAnander:
Some followup/backstory
history of violence. homophobic baiting. why are we not surprised.
and the WSJ, needless to say, says that women should just use more commonsense and that — wait for it! — feminists are to blame for the incidence of rape on campus, by encouraging young women to behave as though they were free and equal human beings.
whereas we know that if they were just sensible and kept their burqas on, no one would throw acid at them, right? silly girls, oughta know better.
18 April 2006, 10:16 pmFrank:
I am sure this comment will not be viewed by anyone on this site. Stan seems to keep the facts out of his blog. This is the third time this girl has claimed rape. She is useing the system that has been set up to protect innocent women from the harm and degregration of sexual assult for her own gains. It is a sad sad day this will not me printed on this blog.
28 April 2006, 10:55 amStan:
No Frank. I wasn’t keeping any fact out. You didn’t send facts. Read the frigging rules, like I emailed you. I am not hosting a forum for anyone who is operating as a flame-troll, and I will not tolerate openly sexist, xenophobic, homophobic, or racist comments. Your earlier posts contined grotesquely misogynist remarks, and this one is teetering on the brink of deletion… but I want others to know how this works. So I am making an example of your obtuse ass.
You yourself are making a claim here without providing any support for your alleged fact. You imply that it is impossible that she might have BEEN raped three times. Rape has the lowest conviction rate of any felony. And if you refer to any grown woman again as a “girl”, particularly a Black woman, you will never surface here again.
Funny I don’t hear a word from you about the racist remarks that these oxygen-thieving, loud-mouthed, pampered white boys made…. which is why I am perfectly comfortable excoriating them thus — regardless of the facts that do emerge about the actual incident.
This blog is not some mock court. We have serious discussions here about issues that are not permitted in court. The law is too disingenuous to ever get at hard truths. If you’ll take that medication they gave you for Jerking Knee Reflex, and actually read what was posted here, you’ll see that we are talking about patriarchy and national oppression, and how it renders Black women and women who are obliged by circumstances to do this kind of shit as “un-rapable.”
Go back and hit the link to Biting Beaver’s story. She has extended it since last time. She was raped repeatedly throughout her life, as are many women beginning in childhood.
Or don’t go read it. Go home, eat your cake and ice cream, and nurse your wounded sense of male entitlement.
28 April 2006, 12:00 pmElaina:
I’m always amazed at the cognitive dissonance of men who refuse to see the way that women experience sexual abuse and assault– it happens in a continuum, just as BB talks about in her post about her story. It’s not all concrete X+X devided by pi happened and so it equals rape, but if you take away the variable X and add A or times it by Y then you have something other than rape.
There is no “formula” for rape. There is not an effective way to even describe it, one that encompasses all it’s effects and implications, under libertarian law; much less any sort of effective means of combatting it. The white man’s law is not set up to protect ANYONE from the white man, it’s set up to ensure that the white man gets his, even if it hurts, and to ensure that we’re all laid out for his use, and that when he goes too, too far, he might get a slap on the wrist if he can’t afford a good lawyer, but we’re made damn sure to know that it was never really his fault that anything happened. Jesus fucking christ.
The material reality of rape and porn culture, the way that rape and abuse really happens in our lives, it doesn’t work that way. And I’m not gonna rely on some male-centric-male-defined idea of what the “court” or the “media” deems rape or abuse to be.
I guess it shouldn’t be so “amazing” since most of the people who rape and abuse are men, and in many cases would be considered “normal” men, not drooling mythical monsters.
But it is. What amazes me is the audacity of the claims, the blatant disregard for material reality, the finger waved at the shit that THEY DO themselves, that they might have just done five minutes ago.
Nobody wants to believe that all this weird shit has happened to us. I get that whole “your life should be a book” commentary- which is a mild way of saying that what I’m telling is unbelievable- and while I might have been through some shit it’s NOTHING, it’s miniscule and it’s kinda like a picnic when I hear stories from other women.
I believe these stories. I don’t doubt their happening at all.
So fuck Frank. I hope he’s banned. Ass.
28 April 2006, 12:58 pmFrank:
I never implyed she or any women could not be raped repeatly However I unlike you do not take everything I hear a fact. And I still stick with the statement when the truth comes out and she is proven to be telling a tale for her own gain then I will say shame on you for the sake of women who have gone through what she is claiming. So go and delete my comments if you wish to delete the truth.
28 April 2006, 4:30 pmfrank:
According to a news report dated today, two of the punks who have so far been implicated in this vile act have been indicted for crimes in the first degree based on conclusive evidence, just as I suspected; a good thing, but how good for the victim?
What about the “PTSD-affected” poor bastard in Italy? Is he being punished for his crime? I certainly hope so. Let him stare at the walls and think about what he did to that woman for a long time, not that it’ll do her any real justice.
from the OTHER frank
28 April 2006, 7:18 pmDeAnander:
I beginnning to have suspicions about cap-F-Frank’s demographic…
meanwhile male bloggers continue to wonder naively about the reality of those wacky Untermenschen… “I don’t see much of a psychological link to [between] gay bashing and rape.” says one defensive schmuck
28 April 2006, 8:36 pmDeAnander:
hey Other Frank, where’s the url for indictment story?
28 April 2006, 8:38 pmDeAnander:
“She didn’t mention anything about a rape” so there could not have been one, yet “she was unable to talk”??? would someone like to get the story straight here? and you can tell if a woman has been raped just by looking at her? and the first thing a woman is gonna say to a total stranger in uniform is, “Hi there, I’ve just been raped by a bunch of preppie college boys, and I was in their frat house stripping for them because I need the money”? and maybe she refused to get out of the other woman’s car because she was in mild shock and/or terrified? hell-o?
you gotta wonder about the state of reporting in the MSM
28 April 2006, 8:44 pmfrank:
DeAnander-
I googled “duke rape”- so, I get a content based webpage with various stories.
Truthfully, deAnander, that’s all I know from where I’m at. Originally, a friend of mine asked me if I’d heard what happened. Then i tuned in to this blog and with that info, and a hunch, cmon…the jackasses are racist and g____..
folks, I’m really tryin to be objective here- this woman’s life has been changed forever-not to mention……….- so, the shit needs to stop. And short of arming the ladies, and leting them take care of business themselves, from where I’m at it’s news AND a motivating factor- I’m learning. HA!! A good friend of mine, recently brokeup with his lady is pissed and says something and i give ‘em the sideways glance, and he says, “I know, you’re a feminist” And he knows ALL ABOUT it. So, if i continue to be serious about it, perhaps he’ll change his mode of thinking back to what he knows is right and fair.
frankyeyes
29 April 2006, 3:03 amfrank:
More opinion on the Duke case-issues of entitlement,privilege put down here-good stuff; meanwhile, waiting for the third indictment:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article361314.ece
be well everyone,
frank
2 May 2006, 1:55 pmfrank:
From the New Yorker, a piece about the Duke case; the issue seems to have fallen off the radar.
1 September 2006, 11:58 amWhat’s the deal?