Like it’s some sort of new revalation. Like you have to be a slave-owner to benefit from white privilege, GAH! *rolls eyes*

Try looking at the world through a lens of somebody else’s eyes for once. OF COURSE there are lots of places where, if you don’t examine what’s going on and if you ain’t outright looking for it, you won’t see yourself experiencing white privilege. That’s how it works.

White Supremacy relies, to a great deal, upon White Blindness. And it gives white people the tools to remain blind, at the same time. Ever think about why YOU might have been able to slip out of the downward spiral? You don’t think that being a white man has ANYTHING to do with it? Nothing at all?

White privilege helped me buy a car at a very cheap interest rate when I was absolutely desperate. I still had to resort to a 2-year committment to a loan, which ain’t the most ideal situation, but it got me into a car. White privilege has kept me from getting ticketed when I was pulled over. White privilege does a lot.

I AM one of those white people who gets followed in department stores on the suspicion that I’ll steal something. Being white hasn’t kept me from being oppressed as a WOMAN, either. But I’m not about to say that I experience oppression in the same ways that women do who are not white. I KNOW that I don’t. I know because I don’t only hang out with white women, and I’ve learned to listen hard and well when they offer me critiques, or tell me that what I’m doing or saying is racist or offensive to them. That doesn’t happen as often anymore, because I DO listen, dammit.

I am so sick and so tired of white men bitching and moaning about how bad they’ve got it, without attempting to fix the SYSTEM that the relatively small oppressions they experience comes from. Instead, they attack us and say that we “villify” them or whatever.

I never once said that Jim Withey owned slaves. Never. I never said that his life was easy. All I said was that he needed to do further examination of his own white privilege, instead of denying it.

And what kind of response do I get? The same old, tired shit that doesn’t even begin to relate to the material world we live in.

Maybe you don’t own slaves. But if you buy ANYTHING imported from a fucking sweatshop, you are actively supporting oppression without yourself being oppressed based on your skin color. You might not have sent the Cherokee onto the Trail of Tears, but if you live in Gringolandia and you don’t live on a reservation, you are “privileged” to be an actual CITIZEN of this country. Native Americans who belong to their own Nations don’t have the same privilege. You pay taxes to the government that oppresses people of color, not just here but around the globe. You have responsibility, and you have accountability, in my eyes, if you decide to go on living in your own lala-land where white supremacist patriarchal privilege doesn’t register as real.

If you can’t see the Man in yourself, you’re doomed in trying to fight him. It ain’t gonna work. That’s a problem that white people have- refusal to see where we DO have a little bit of a leg up, even if it’s a broke, crippled leg, where folks without white skin or white identity don’t.

And we grow up in a Gringo society where everything is ME ME ME ME ME ME ME. Selfishness is the national passtime. Dammit, if it ain’t, then why the hell do you think so many folks who definitely exist ABOVE working-class means and want to be involved in “progressive” movements don’t want to share the real, material space and the shit that they have with other people? Sometimes it feels like Ayn Rand wrote our constitution, with her bullshit “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” megalomaniac libertarian sci-fi way of thinking that alienates everydamn body from everydamn body else.

I see able-bodied, white, working class men EVERY DAY who will complain about the hand the system’s dealt them and not do a DAMN thing about it, when they have opportunities and support, especially support from the WOMEN in their lives. They sit around blaming the fucking liberation movements for their woes when the liberation movement has actually opened doors for them.

And I also know Black Women who, in spite of systemic oppression and dealing with individualized racism every day, in spite of having all the odds against them and having to raise children or care for relatives, keep on moving forward, keep on fighting, keep on making things work out so that they survive.

Working class white men might have a hard row to hoe, but a lot of the time when the ground DOES eventually get soft it’s because it’s been watered with white privilege.

Why the hell SHOULDN’T folks with privilege give some of it up, if they’re dedicated to changing the world?

Why do white people, especially white men, think that the creature comforts and material well-being that they have is ONLY owed to THEM? When there are others in the world who do much more work, and produce exactly the stuff that they work to be able to consume?
It’s solipsistic and suicidal. Fuck. It’s social darwinism and white supremacy working together. Why the hell can’t folks see that?

Some people ARE fighting the man, and it LOOKS like they’re fighting the man, and they’re willing to give up and break down what little bit of privilege they have, even if they feel they’ve worked hard for it, in order to see that the Man goes down, for good.

I gotta go to work.

ANYWAYS. I just gotta say something to this.

“To my way of thinking, the “racist society” rhetoric, while accurate to a certain extent, provides protective cover and encouragement for those minorities who are not interested in justice or the common good. Their decision to behave badly and not think and act to better themselves and society is given more encouragement and protection by this rhetoric and policy, while doing little or nothing to help those minorities who ARE trying to be just and decent people, trapped in a difficult environment.”

Look. I don’t wanna be rude here. But to me this paragraph translates as a very convoluted way to say “Non-whites commit crime somehow inherently. Attacking the white supremacist superstructure only encourages this bad behavior, and ruins everything for the GOOD non-whites out there.” I dunno. I really don’t mean to project, that’s just the vibe I get from this, bro, and I hope that you understand that’s why I’m harping on you.

For the record, I don’t automatically assume that a person who commits a crime, simply because the crime’s labelled a crime, is a “bad” person. And I don’t think you’re so “down” with what’s going on, sufficient to say that you have as a poor white man comparable lived experience to somebody from a roughly equivalent financial status who is non white, and especially non-male. You don’t. It sounds like you have very little perspective here. Like people just randomly decide one day after breakfast, “hey! Wouldn’t it be a great idea to go and steal a car stereo. Or maybe, maybe I’ll assault somebody!”

Individual “decisions” are very highly informed and influenced by systems and conditions. I don’t consider somebody whose grown up in a fucked-up, impoverished neighboorhood and been addicted to X narco-substance from childhood to be in a place where they can always consciously decide to “do the right thing.” I don’t see how you can, if you got so much on-the-ground perspective. Unless, of course, you’re the type of guy who likes to compare every coping strategy, every reaction, every visible show of “fortitude” to YOUR OWN situation, and deem that all those who can’t do “X” are bullshit, because hell, YOU did it.

It’s fucked up as hell to blame national liberation movements for crime. It’s dumb as all get-out to think avoiding the issue of a system of white supremacy would actually help “prevent crime”.

So what, now anti-white-supremacist-thought is the reason that more crimes get committed? That’s like saying that rape happens because of feminism. Totally fucking lame, dude.

I would much prefer to let Elaina and Stan deal with the Herculean task of challenging your terrible assumptions on white privilege, but there is one statement in your last post that I can’t ignore.

“I think my experience compares favorably with many in the minority community who are ostracized and struggle with oppression.”

As a queer poor Black woman, all I can say is:
BULLSHIT.

Thanks, Jim.

Yolanda

I don’t think I’m dissing the very major role that individual behaviors have in keeping the white supremacist power structure intact- and I think I mention the importance of holding the mirror to ourselves quite often, in fact.

There’s a mistake in classifying a group of people as “generally good.” That in itself denies the intricacies of individuality, and personality. And it gives you a lot less to work with, actually, in the long run.

There’s a big, long post on the Biting Beaver site about “nice guys” and their role in keeping the patriarchy solid. The point of it, but please scroll down the links and go look it up, it’s a really telling read, is that even nice guys do fucked up shit like raping women. It’s not a fucking biological illness, some sort of wierd quirk that only a small handful of dudes out there is “afflicted” with. Rape, abuse, domestic violence, they’re all over the place. For every rape that happens every few minutes there’s a guy out there doing the raping.

There are very good, very nice, hardworking, decent white people out there who do white supremacist shit everyday without even thinking about it. I have a good friend, one of my best friends, who I call out on a pretty regular basis- not because she’s being mean to me, or to anybody in particular, but when we argue on the “immigration” issue, she’s all for closing borders, and I think that’s completely white supremacist. She gets very upset when I put it into plain terms like that, then proceed to break it down to her.

That’s just one example. I know so many white people who will say shit like “I’m absolutely not racist/prejudiced BUT…”

There are places in our lives where we cash in on our privilege chips. You don’t have to have formulated a formal ideology of racism, you don’t have to use racial slurs, you don’t have to shave your head and get to goose-steppin’ to be participating in this system. Most white supremacy goes unnoted by those who are its active participants. Of course, we don’t want to hurt anybody, not on purpose. But if you haven’t noted, it’s gotten easier and easier for us to hurt people “unknowingly” or “unintentionally” via xenophobia. What about the faceless women in South and Central America who do shit like manufacture our clothing in horrid sweatshops for slave wages? Why the hell are they faceless to us? We create the demand for the things that they make. We provide, with what little hard cash most of us have, the gas for the vehicle that runs them over. And over. And over. And while we might be stuck, a lot of us, our sin turns into one of COMISSION when we realize what’s happening, and don’t actively work to change it. When we say that our own lives are way too hard, when we say that we’re powerless to change things, that’s when a person’s individually accountable. We damn sure have the power, a lot of us do, to go to the walmart or to the dollar general or wherever and buy those clothes. I mean, do you honestly go out and make all of the stuff that you need? Do you grow your own food, all the time, and harvest it yourself? Do you think that people live completely free of help in gringolandia? You might, I dunno. I can tell you that if you do you ain’t a majority.

Most of us, including myself, opt to go out and purchase the things that we need instead of manufacturing these things for ourselves. Does that make me a “bad” person? I sure hope not. I’ve never learned how to weave. I’d like to, but I don’t have the luxury of time to learn. Etc. I have to work. For crying out loud, I live with my mom and my sister and my niece and my nephew and his girlfriend and my brother. I have to work. I have to make it better for myself. I hope that I’m not a ‘bad’ person for doing what I have to do. In fact, I know I’m not a bad person.

That doesn’t exempt me from knowing my place in the global economy, and doing what I’m able to do to help out those people who might be suffering in a sweatshop because I “need” panties. And that’s just one little example of how people are situated according to economy, along color lines. There’s a million intricacies that I don’t have time to go into right now because I have to go and work at my shit job for the next 8 hours.

We can’t just say that we are “doing fine.” We can’t just say, “I’m OK, because I don’t make fun of people who don’t look like me.” I appreciate it when people, other people, tell me that I’m doing a good job. I feel kinda proud and relieved when I see white people out there doing good, political work that fuck’s with the white supremacist, patriarchal system. Every damn thing you do interfaces with this system. When I see people out there living self-critical lives, trying to break down the oppressive values they’ve inherited, absorbed from the culture, I am INDEED glad. But I don’t bake them baskets of cookies, either. It’s what they shoulda been doing all along. It speaks to privilege when a white person with decent intelligence makes the conscious decision to break down her/his own relative privilege. A white person, in many places in this country, can bumble along and not think about it damn near their whole lives, can pretend that “prejudice” and “racism” are things of the past, and still be considered a “good person.” That is fucking privilege, and it ain’t right. And I’m not saying that you’re one of those people Jim, I’m just kinda concerned at how really inquisitive, intelligent people will go to bat for those folks, especially in political conversations.

And bringing it back to the immigration question- when you boil it all down, it’s hard to sit there and stamp your foot and say that I have a right to X while other people have none. No matter what your place in the gringo-white world. And you can’t take your own personal story and aggrandize it to try and say that anti-white-supremacist thought is somehow related to the cause of your woes. It ain’t. If you want to attack bourgeios white folks who run the left, feel free, and I’ll join you. Don’t attack our attempts to dismantle white supremacy, please, though. It’s the wrong target for your ire.

I like to think it’s a majority of us that COULD be capable of getting together to work on this shit. That it’s not just 40% or less.

But white people have accountability and they have responsibility NOW, Jim. You can’t strike a balance after sooooo long living crookedly by just promising to do the right thing, without offering up some proof.

This is a system. White Supremacy is a system, not a behavior or a bad habit. It won’t change because one or two or three people choose to fight it at any given time. Apathy is a key element here; libertarianism tells us that apathy’s OK! By committing an omissive sin, by not giving a damn, neglecting to see where it works as an advantage in our own lives, we convince ourselves that we just did these things “cause we had to,” “we have a right”, “we can’t save the world alone,” yadda yadda.

Jim. When the hell did anybody ever say that your experience wasn’t relevant? I don’t think I did, and if I did say it I’m sorry. I wouldn’t say something like that intentionally to anyone.

But, my friend, YOU have to be open to having your experience put into a context, it’s relevance comes from it’s context, not merely the ways that it’s shaped YOU individually.

I get deeply, deeply concerned when I see white people telling each other not to worry so much about it, when we say it’s “not our fault.”

The place we’re born is ‘not our fault.” The social class we’re born in is “not our fault.” The color of our skin is “not our fault,” and we didn’t pick it out.

Being a “good” person in a general sense doesn’t exempt anybody from social accountability. We’re not in a historical place where we can reasonably expect that our “good deeds” will be rewarded. Refusing, to the extent that one is able, white privilege, and being actively anti-white-supremacist isn’t something that we should get cookies for.

I talk about this attitude of entitlement when I talk about gender issues. Men don’t deserve rewards for doing the shit they should be doing out of human decency in the first place.

White people are not yet in a place where we can start patting ourselves on the back. Maybe that’s a little hard-line. But somebody’s gotta say it.

Relative privilege, like I said. For some of us, the white skin is the ONLY damn one we got. That doesn’t make it OK for us to insist on keeping it. Or to fight tooth and nail to hold on to it.

Yeah, you gotta play the hand you’re dealt. But you can’t expect to STILL be the group sitting on top of all the good shit at the end of the day. You have got to take the mirror to your own life here. However you can do it.

I bring up ideology a lot here. What does that word mean? There are multiple interpretations, but the one I use is a constructed world view that simultaneously conceals and reproduces power.

The word power is the operative term.

I raised three Black kids. I am white. I told my Black kids not to give cops or white people they don’t know the benefit of the doubt. This is not racism, but a recognition of power. Don’t take it personal.

Jim estimate of 40%^ white folks who are not “racist,” a term I am sure has a very strict behavioral definition confined to examination of descrete incidents. I use the term white supremacy… both a system and a ideology. Regardless of the exceptions among sports and entertainment stars, the empirical informaiton shows without even a whiff of a doubt that there is such a system, and it operates every day with a vengeance… literally, if you look at prison populations, homicide rates, poverty figures, the quality of schools, the locations of toxic waste dumps, etc.

Even those stars fit in to this system, albeit in ways that serve to further invisibilize it, until one of them fucks up, then we get a public lesson on Black deviance (as De says, Taint).

When I tell my kids what I tell them, I am being a good parent who is telling them what they need to survive in the world. Big white boys are not walking around with a bulls eye painted on them for the first nervous cop that comes along. White boys don’t have rent-a-cops coming to my door at 2 AM asking to see if my boys are in their beds (this happened — we were the only family with Black folks on the block then).

And I’ve been aorund white folks all my life. The number of those who have deeply internalized white supremacy as an ideology are imho closer to 95%. Liberal racism is ubiquitous and in some ways more insidious than conservaive racism.