Tim

You haven’t read the rules. Differences of opinion are tolerated. Flaming is not. This suggestion that Murtha or I are supporting Zarqawi by opposing US-led massacres is pure provocation without content or reason, except to provoke.

You are welcome to engage in this kind of mindless macho attack any time you want, and as often as you want… elsewhere (might I suggest Free Republic, where you will be welcomed by at least a dozen like-minded whitemen).

It’s again’ the rules here… ta ta.

Stan
US Army 1970-1996

You can only praise Murtha and Stan if you assume:

1- that it’s all true.
2- that it is SOP
3- that it’s acceptable to the military

Any measure of rationality would at the least wait until the investigation is completed. All anyone outside the military investigation knows for sure is 1 Marine was killed, two wounded, and 15 civilians were killed, including women and children. Everything else is speculation at this point. The military has aerial video, digital pictures by an after-action unit, bullet holes, ballistics, and all sorts of “evidence” that needs contex *that can only be provided by a trial*.

And may I make the point, having been through 3 USMC Summary Court Martials and found not guilty in each, that until the trials have been conducted and the evidence given context, everyone is in grave danger of “ready-fire-oops”. I can personally attest to the serious cluster-f**k that’s created when one leaps to conclusions.

But let’s assume for the sake of arguement for the moment the charges are substantially acurate. The military has the means and will to deal with the situation, much more effectively and justly than the civilian courts and press do (remember, in your favorite miscomparison My Lai, that Calley was freed by a civilian court. My Lai was an unprovoked mini-genocide of somewhere between 350 and 500 villagers, not the sooting of 15 civilians after an IED blew up one Marine and wounded 2 others. Let’s be somewhat rational here..). If the Marines involved are proven guilty of the charges, few will excuse their behavior. We may understand it, but not excuse it. But if they aren’t, in fact guilty, if this is merely a good presentation by an increasingly propaganda-savvy insurgency, who will give back those Marines and Navy Corpsman their reputations and respect? Or will y’all just scream cover-up and travety because the facts turn out not to agree with your desperate wishes?

Given that, one has to ask what the objective is to get out in front of this in the press. Whose interest is served? The public? America? The war? The Iraqis who want some measure of self-determination? The Marine Corps? The Navy Corpman sitting in the brig in Diego without having been charged with anything yet? How about a sense of respect and balance for the principles we hold dear? Or how about Murtha’s personal political goals, being put above all else.

We oft say there are no “ex-Marines”, once a Marine, Always a Marine.

Murtha is an EX-Marine.

-Steeley
USMC 1971-1975

Last year, before travelling to Quang Ngai to interview survivors of the ‘Tiger Force’ massacres, I spoke with an old friend, a Viet Cong Colonel. He remarked that he could be blindfolded and given a dart. Thrown at a map of Viet Nam hung on a wall, he stated that wherever it might land, that site would have its own My Lai or Tiger Force story to recount.I am certain same can be said for Iraq or Afghanistan. We do remember the latter, no?

My Lai/Son My Letters

1)March 1999

I am writing this letter from Sai Gon, Viet Nam. In recent days, I have found myself focusing more and more on the anniversary that will occur next week, the 16th of March. It will have been 31 years since a group of American soldiers, ‘led’ by a Lt. William Calley, participated in the massacre of some 500 Vietnamese civilians in the hamlets we know as My Lai.

For me this one event stands out above all the other horrors of that era. The dark events of that day took place over a time-span of some four hours. The length is important because it eliminates the extenuating circumstance of a ‘momentary madness’. The acts must have been performed in ‘cold blood’.

I, too, was an American soldier of that period and I served in the same area, the province of Quang Ngai, as did those troops of Calley’s. We were infantrymen or ‘grunts’ and it has always been the lot of the foot-soldier to bear the brunt of war and witness at first hand the gore and brutality that need be a necessary part of combat.

But because of this intimate exposure to the terrible realities of battle, I believe that infantrymen can, do, and must live by a personal code of honor. It is only in this manner that some connection with humanity can be maintained. Geneva Convention Rules? Never once heard them mentioned in field. They are worth the paper they are written on.

There was little honor or humanity exhibited on 16 March 1968 at My Lai. I am repulsed by those evil events, not as an American, but as a human being and as a soldier. The nations of the world take great pride in celebrating the events and individuals that illustrate the lofty moments of their cultures and traditions. I sometimes wonder if we should not also remember those events and individuals that expose our darker side.

I plan to be at My Lai on the 16th. I hope this gesture can assure the souls of those victims that they have not been and will not be forgotten.

Possibly the striking but coincidental similarity in our names and units has always heightened the impact and poignancy of this event for me.

Lt. William Calley, Jr. Lt. William Kelly, Jr.
Co.’C', 1/20 Bn., 11th LIB, Americal Division
Co.’C', 3/1 Bn., 11th LIB, Americal Division

2)March 1999

A few weeks ago I wrote a letter to the Viet Nam News concerning some thoughts I had about the up-coming anniversary of the My Lai Massacre. At the end of my letter I mentioned that I hoped to be present at the site on the 16th of March to pay my respects to the victims. Many of my friends here in VN, particularly my Vietnamese friends, were a bit bewildered as to the intensity of my desire to make the journey. I, too, was hard-pressed to explain it, even to myself. It just seemed fitting that I be there and it felt like the right thing to do.

I made the trip. It entailed a flight to Da Nang and a car-ride to Quang Ngai province. We arrived about 10 AM and I was happy that there were very few others present. I wasn’t sure if there might be a ceremony or not. But for the two hours that I was on that hallowed ground there was an aura of peace and quiet. Befitting.

I was left alone with my thoughts and permitted to contemplate the horrible doings of that day. I visited the grave markers and said my silent prayers for the dead. As I strolled about, I was continually drawn to that ‘ditch’ where so many lives were taken.

I found myself trying to imagine what it must have been like for those people 31 years ago. There is very little shade in that area of Quang Ngai and I’m sure the brutal noonday sun was the same as it almost invariably is at this time of year. I could smell the cordite that would permeate the air as the soldiers emptied the magazines of their M-16′s, probably on full ‘rock-n-roll’, into the terrified, bewildered groups of women and children.

Automatic fire is less personal.

Their fear must have been palpable. Was there screaming and crying? Did they plead in Vietnamese to their English speaking executioners? Or had they seen so much before in their lives that this too could be stoically accepted.

I was left to my musing for a long time. It was not the first time for me to entertain such thoughts nor would it be the last. At that moment I felt sorrow for more than just My Lai. That ground and that day could be a metaphor for the whole era of American involvement in Viet Nam. Something went terribly wrong.

I do not wish to imply that the actions of that day were the norm. But if we can leave the wantonness and cruelty and gratuitous brutality aside, might there only be a relative difference in the act of dropping a bomb from a distance where neither party can see or hear each other? Is it a form of brutality to shoot artillery into areas marked on a map as ‘free-fire’ zones? Is that what war really is? If so, you had better be damned sure you know what you are fighting for. I certainly didn’t!

We left My Lai and travelled a bit further south on Highway One. I had planned to visit the town of Duc Pho where my base camp was located. About 10 kilometres short of our destination, I asked my driver to turn around and head back to the airport in Da Nang.

I suddenly realized that I didn’t need or want to see another fire-base. What I did see and what heartened me was the stream of school-children pedalling their bikes to and from class. The beautiful and uniquely Vietnamese sight of young high-school girls with their ao dais flowing behind. A proud, hopeful symbol of a proud, hopeful nation.

We began the long trek northward and I couldn’t stop my mind from dwelling upon that long-ago era. There was a gnawing anger that had been experienced for so long that its edge had been dulled from overuse.

When would an elected leader of my nation have the ‘balls’ to stand up and say we made a horrible error?

When would that leader arise who was ‘big’ enough to say we were sorry?

When would America extend a hand in true friendship to Viet Nam?

The Vietnamese people are owed. The American people are owed. And I think the greatest debt is owed to the unwitting GI. We were young and naive then. Now we are wiser.

3) March 2000

I have just returned from Quang Ngai province where I visited the site of the massacre which took place on this date 32 years ago. It was the third consecutive year that I had travelled to the site to pay my respects to the innocent victims. Actually, it was my fourth time there, for as an American infantryman, I patrolled in those hamlets in 1969. A year after the deed and some months before the story became known to the public. I think of My Lai often and I am still bewildered by the horrible actions performed by that group of American soldiers. Five hundred and four lives. For nothing.

Or so it seems. Most commentators and historians dealing with the American War consider the Tet Offensive of early 1968 as the turning point. They point to this because of the effect it had on the American resolve to continue prosecuting a war that seemed to be, at best, stalemated. And Tet most assuredly played an important role in America’s disengagement. The ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ was something powerful moving forward. However, I believe that My Lai was the true catalyst for the American withdrawal. It opened the eyes of all to the harsh reality of our involvement in Viet Nam. Thus I like to think that those 504 lives were not taken in vain. Their seemingly pointless sacrifice could very well be viewed as one that shortened the conflict and so by helped to save the lives of so many others.

I left 504 flowers at the graves and this note exhibiting some of my Irish sentimentality and romanticism.

“Today I have brought you some flowers and my wish is that they will represent to you all the flowers that you would have received had your lives not been stolen from you. For those of you who were older in age, please accept them as a token of all the flowers you would have received from your children and grandchildren. And for you who were so very young, I would like you to think of them as coming from your first boy-friend or girl-friend. I hope you will smile and be happy today.

With Love,
Billy Kelly”

4)March 2002

Today marks the 34th year since those horrible events took place in Viet Nam at the hamlets we now know as My Lai. Unfortunately it is not a unique occurrence in the annals of mankind’s behavior during wartime. Yet for the American public it struck a nerve showing that we, too, were not impervious to succumbing to our baser instincts.

We should not forget.

And by remembering we can assure that those 504 human beings did not die for naught.

Four days ago I visited My Lai, Viet Nam to pay my respects to the 504 victims of the massacre perpetrated by American soldiers. The date was 16 March 1968.

We Americans will always remember 7 December 1941 and 11 September 2001. Would we not show some wisdom by remembering those dates that remind us that we, too, can act less that honorably.

Those innocent at My Lai must have felt great incomprehensive ‘terror’ over a span of four hours.

Violence can take many forms but it is always repugnant.

Is morality relevant?

William (Billy) Kelly Jr.
1st LT US Army Infantry; Quang Ngai, Viet Nam; 1968-1969

Why doesn’t the law hold accountable ALL in the chain of command, especially the guys with the fruit salad all over their chests? i.e. Abu Ghraib- Are we to believe that the officers in charge, even the staff and flag officers, had no knowledge of the abuses being committed? And since they are responsible for the conduct and training of these same troops, a judicial manhole cover dropped from above upon them would surely send an example to others of the same rank- ach, it’s that privilege and patriarchy prevailing yet again. Enron/Halliburton/Army War College- same difference.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060526/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/marines_iraq_investigations

“”We do not employ force just for the sake of employing force. We use lethal force only when justified, proportional and, most importantly, lawful,” Gen. Michael W. Hagee, the Marine Corps commandant, wrote in a statement issued by his office. Aides said it was the basis of remarks he intended to make to Marines in Iraq this week.
…….

In Wednesday’s announcement of the latest criminal investigation, Marine officials said a preliminary probe had found enough information to recommend a full investigation by the Naval Criminal Investigation Service.

The Marine Corps provided no details about the alleged killing, including either the gender or age of the victim. It said “several service members” from the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, based in the Fallujah area about 40 miles west of Baghdad, were suspected of involvement. They were “removed from operations” and sent back to the U.S. pending the results of the criminal investigation, it said.

A second criminal investigation is probing allegations that Marines from another battalion killed at least 15 civilians, including women and children, last November in Haditha, 140 miles northwest of Baghdad.

The military initially described the Haditha encounter as an ambush during a joint U.S.-Iraqi patrol that involved a roadside bombing in which a Marine died, followed by a firefight. However, residents of the neighborhood maintained that only U.S. forces were shooting after the explosion.”

Now some minimum wage kids from the wrong side of the tracks can have the rest of their lives ruined by doing something they were led to believe was fine and dandy, by those who tell them exactly what IS fine and dandy. Lets hear it for military justice!

Here’s a question: do war crimes trials ever actually do what they are supposed to do? As in, punish the guilty and make war crimes more difficult in the future? Or are they all just back-slapping stick-to-beat-ones-enemies PR exercises? If they are, then what actual purpose do they serve? Does anyone who refuses to believe in the rule of law have any right to demand the rule of international law?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/26/world/middleeast/26haditha.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5094&en=b7363380ed080aa4&hp&ex=1148702400&partner=homepage

About freakin’ time. The article is hobbled by the usual see-no-evil bias of US mainstream reporting, that being that only well-documented incidents might have maybe possibly occurred. They say that this “incident could be the gravest case involving misconduct by American ground forces in Iraq”, NOT something like, “this incident might lend credibility to countless allegations that US forces have committed numerous war crimes in Iraq”.

But we have to take what we can get from the sycophantic US press. On the second page of the online edition, they even quote the “A” word:

“Representative John Kline, a Minnesota Republican who is a retired Marine colonel, said that the allegations indicated that ‘this was not an accident. This was direct fire by marines at civilians.’ He added, ‘This was not an immediate response to an attack. This would be an atrocity.’”

A few Professors who practice the crazy sounding “psychometrics,” a practice completely mathematical and not at all psychic.

One of their more informative charts includes ratings every Congresscritter and President of the last 75 years in one scale.

But I really came to write about joining the Army.

My logic works like this.

We’ve got crazies and idiots over there running the show. I’ve read your Hideous Dream and I know that, at some level, if a moral person has some say then some level of sanity will prevail (even if, in the end, your own guys ruin it for you).

If I were an infantry officer, I could be sure that one group of grunts were acting on better orders, perhaps even close to ideal orders, to keep our footprint on the necks of Iraqis as light as possible.

I really don’t think you’ll agree, but I’d appreciate it if you told me why.